VirginWorlds.com - Exploring Massively Multiplayer Games

Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up. We're Talking #53
Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:12:00 GMT [download/play]

Introductions

Listener Mail/What we're playing

Grumpy

Hosts:

Darren - Commonsensegamer.com

Karen - Journey's with Jaye

Brent - VirginWorlds

Michael - DCUO

Previous Episodes
Episode #77 - Duration: 2925 - Released: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:16:01 +0000
Episode #76 - Duration: 7730 - Released: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:34:01 +0000
Episode #75 - Duration: 4659 - Released: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:57:48 +0000
Episode #74 - Duration: 4071 - Released: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:22:45 +0000
Episode #73 - Duration: 4943 - Released: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:41:07 +0000
Episode #72 - Duration: 4707 - Released: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:28:52 +0000
Episode #71 - Duration: 3820 - Released: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:39:28 +0000
Episode #70 - Duration: 4623 - Released: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:51:32 +0000
Episode #69 - Duration: 4837 - Released: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:07:07 +0000
Episode #68 - Duration: 01:13:32 - Released: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:34:00 GMT
Episode #67 - Duration: 01:12:09 - Released: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:24:00 GMT
Episode #66 - Duration: 00:59:30 - Released: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:26:00 GMT
Episode #65 - Duration: 01:23:43 - Released: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:03:00 GMT
Episode #64 - Duration: - Released: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:51:00 GMT
Episode #63 - Duration: 01:13:26 - Released: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:52:00 GMT
Episode #62 - Duration: 01:12:04 - Released: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:28:00 GMT
Episode #61 - Duration: 01:26:12 - Released: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:26:00 GMT
Episode #60 - Duration: 01:57:27 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:34:00 GMT
Episode #59 - Duration: 01:37:24 - Released: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:48:00 GMT
Episode #58 - Duration: 01:21:01 - Released: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:45:00 GMT
Episode #57 - Duration: 01:47:46 - Released: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:01:00 GMT
Episode #56.5 - Duration: 00:02:21 - Released: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:26:00 GMT
Episode #56 - Duration: 01:01:53 - Released: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:41:00 GMT
Episode #55 - Duration: 01:16:27 - Released: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:00 GMT
Episode #54 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:51:00 GMT
Episode #53 - Duration: 01:31:47 - Released: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:12:00 GMT
Episode #52.5 - Duration: 00:04:12 - Released: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:43:00 GMT
Episode #52 - Duration: 01:04:24 - Released: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:35:00 GMT
Episode #51 - Duration: 01:17:30 - Released: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:49:00 GMT
Episode #50 - Duration: 01:35:33 - Released: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:15:00 GMT
Episode #49 - Duration: 01:03:31 - Released: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:27:00 GMT
Episode #48 - Duration: 01:13:44 - Released: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:25:00 GMT
Episode #47 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:21:00 GMT
Episode #46 - Duration: 01:27:11 - Released: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:05:00 GMT
Episode #45 - Duration: 01:04:36 - Released: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:01:00 GMT
Episode #44 - Duration: 00:56:47 - Released: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:15:00 GMT
Episode #43.1 - Duration: 00:18:59 - Released: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:11:00 GMT
Episode #43 - Duration: 00:59:34 - Released: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:24:00 GMT
Episode #42 - Duration: 01:11:28 - Released: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:14:00 GMT
Episode #41 - Duration: 01:06:59 - Released: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:55:00 GMT
Episode #40.5 - Duration: 00:02:50 - Released: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:48:00 GMT
Episode #40 - Duration: 01:16:52 - Released: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:45:00 GMT
Episode #39 - Duration: 01:08:43 - Released: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:01:00 GMT
Episode #38 - Duration: 00:37:38 - Released: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:00 GMT
Episode #37 - Duration: - Released: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:00 GMT
Episode #36 - Duration: 01:10:59 - Released: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:03:00 GMT
Episode #35 - Duration: 00:49:08 - Released: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:54:00 GMT
Episode #34 - Duration: 01:08:50 - Released: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:38:00 GMT
Episode #33 - Duration: 00:58:54 - Released: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:42:00 GMT
Episode #32 - Duration: 01:03:27 - Released: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:01:00 GMT
Episode #31 - Duration: 01:05:03 - Released: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:13:00 GMT
Episode #30 - Duration: 00:59:20 - Released: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:44:00 GMT
Episode #29 - Duration: 00:28:31 - Released: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:48:00 GMT
Episode #28 - Duration: 01:09:13 - Released: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:31:00 GMT
Episode #27 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:42:00 GMT
Episode #26 - Duration: 01:06:47 - Released: Mon, 19 May 2008 03:10:00 GMT
Episode #25 - Duration: 01:01:48 - Released: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:46:00 GMT
Episode #24 - Duration: 00:57:48 - Released: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:00:00 GMT
Episode #23 - Duration: 00:47:54 - Released: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:05:00 GMT
Episode #22 - Duration: 01:12:16 - Released: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:54:00 GMT
Episode #21 - Duration: 01:56:55 - Released: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 05:01:00 GMT
Episode #20 - Duration: 00:49:01 - Released: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:08:00 GMT
Episode #19 - Duration: 01:01:05 - Released: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:08:00 GMT
Episode #18 - Duration: 01:08:01 - Released: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:35:00 GMT
Episode #17 - Duration: 01:36:26 - Released: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:07:00 GMT
Episode #16 - Duration: 01:06:39 - Released: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:58:00 GMT
Episode #15 - Duration: 01:33:23 - Released: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:24:00 GMT
Episode #14 - Duration: 01:24:15 - Released: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:47:00 GMT
Episode #13 - Duration: 01:22:18 - Released: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:30:00 GMT
Episode #12 - Duration: 01:17:38 - Released: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:55:00 GMT
Episode #11 - Duration: 01:17:01 - Released: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:30:00 GMT
Episode #10 - Duration: 01:00:37 - Released: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 03:33:00 GMT
Episode #9 - Duration: 01:12:13 - Released: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:47:00 GMT
Episode #8 - Duration: 01:24:35 - Released: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:44:00 GMT
Episode #7 - Duration: 01:11:21 - Released: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:05:00 GMT
Episode #6 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:13:00 GMT
Episode #5 - Duration: 00:58:57 - Released: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:50:00 GMT
Episode #4 - Duration: 01:13:04 - Released: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:52:00 GMT
Episode #3 - Duration: 01:10:25 - Released: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:20:00 GMT
Episode #2 - Duration: 01:09:48 - Released: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:20:00 GMT
Episode #1 - Duration: 01:08:21 - Released: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:12:00 GMT

Episode 53 Discussion Thread

'Great episode, shame about the sound.....' by Floss
Submitted on 2009-09-08 12:58:33 CST
Loved the cast, great subject well discussed.

Nice to hear Brent on a podcast again.

Sound was err...."well ropey". Not only just the microphone "rubbing" noise but also the general quality of the podcast, it sounds a wee bitty muffled and distorted.

Great to hear you all together again, can't you guys stagger your vacations so we at least have one podcast to listen to? ;-)

'sound' by darrenl

Submitted on 2009-09-08 16:31:13 CST
...yeah. I'm afraid that all of my sexy sound settlings were lost after I had to reformat my computer.

You're going to have to be patient whilst I get my mojo back on that front ;)

'Great to you have back!' by Anjin

Submitted on 2009-09-08 18:15:09 CST
Great discussion as always, even if it was off the cuff. I loved hearing Brent say what I've always thought: the harsh split between the leveling game and the endgame is such a strange construction. I would love to see (though I probably wouldn't play because I'm a soloer) a game that involved you in a guild from the very start. His offhanded comment that an MMO is massive because of the size of the world, not just the size of the groups.

FYI: On iTunes, the show notes jammed a couple lines together, so I thought we would be getting "Grumpy Hosts." :)

'Wooo... I agree with Brent! What the Hell?' by mikejl

Submitted on 2009-09-08 18:33:15 CST
Wow! Brent I agree with the opinion “why does end-game need to be different from leveling” comment. I got to the point where I ignore end game in all MMOs I have played (and currently play). I find I enjoy the game more.

I have been lucky to be in guild (Brothers of Honor in WoW and Casualties of WAR in Warhammer) that do not force you to play their way.

Guess in my older age I no not like voice chat and 4 hour raids anymore.. “you raiders get off my lawn!” kind of attitude.

Great show.

Mikejl
www.mikejl.com/mikeblog

'Journey's with Jaye is Back' by Jaxom92

Submitted on 2009-09-08 19:36:22 CST
Don't worry, you were never taken off my blog roll... mainly because I don't even think about my blog roll except when I add a new one. All my feeds are through Google Reader so if someone doesn't post, I usually don't notice because I have a plethora of other feeds I'm reading. I must say, though, it was a pleasant surprise to see a post from your blog show up in the reader.

'Thanks!' by Jaxom92

Submitted on 2009-09-08 19:58:19 CST
Hey, forgot to add this to my last comment, but a big thanks for pimping my blog and reading my comment on the show.

'old farts' by Token

Submitted on 2009-09-08 20:02:17 CST
Karen connected some dots for me here. The players used to be far more integral to my experiences in WoW, when it was a lot more like EVE. In vanilla I knew the names of the other factions major players, I knew their specs, their gear. We would fight, it would get personal often. Tons of IRC and cease fires. It feels like the world has shrunk rather than expanded.

'Name Correction' by Jaxom92

Submitted on 2009-09-08 21:27:05 CST
This is what I get for post comments as I listen to the podcast but...

Just wanted to clarify the blog link you gave out. It's http://middleearthadventurer.com
It doesn't have a "the" at the front because I was trying to keep the length of the URL as short as I could. That might have been a mistake because the actually name of the blog does indeed include a "the" at the beginning.

'old eh?' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-09-08 22:12:14 CST
Wow...the whole "we feel old" session was sort of odd. Michael, Brent and Darren should let me introduce them to gamers who really are old.

You are only as old as you feel.

Interesting discussion as always. It was good to hear Brent again.

Julie

'Gaming Ages' by TranquilAbyss
Submitted on 2009-09-09 03:16:00 CST
Didn't we already know that different age group play for different reasons. I like to see my self as not just a gamer but a game designer. So when I think about the game I want to design I do use what you guys say and other gamers say to determine whether to add more development time into controls and balance or into storyline and community features.

No I am not part of a gaming company but I am making a game.

'End Game = End of the Game' by Zulika
Submitted on 2009-09-11 05:16:14 CST
I echo the comments Brent made in regards to end game. Once I reach the end game it is always the end of the game for me and I unsub.

I hate that this has become a standard and fail to understand why companies think of strict raid groups and PVP as content instead of gameplay styles. Do they think that their raids and PVP are so different from the other games that I will want to pay them money for months on end and forget all about a new shiny content filled storyline elsewhere?

'@ Zulika' by Token

Submitted on 2009-09-11 10:12:47 CST
Why do you unsub after grinding away for 150 hours, why stop before the real game. Did you expect something different to happen, or is levelling simply the fun you expected and now it's over? Is this a solo'ing thing, or is it truly about quest text, why not just read a book?

'Why I'm grumpy' by Andrew

Submitted on 2009-09-11 12:21:53 CST
I'm grumpy because many/most mainstream MMO developers have stopped innovating in a radical way, and instead are just refining the same old model over and over again. This has the effect of making all of the MMOs (with very few exceptions) feel the same. Why log into LotRO (for example) when I could get nearly the same experience in WoW or WAR or any number of other games. Blech.

'WoW as Saint and Satan' by Jaxom92

Submitted on 2009-09-11 21:07:47 CST
This might sound a bit strange, but I think WoW has done some great things for the genre and industry, and yet at the same time has proven to be a thorn in its side. It refined the past model of MMOs, brought it to the point of near perfection and polish and succeeded because of it. Everybody in the industry saw that unprecedented success, and like good businessmen, wanted to compete and get a piece of the pie. In an inverse of the usual dynamic, this competition only resulted in more of the same rather than innovation.

I suppose one can look at a couple of industries as good examples. The MMO space has been filled up with Burger Kings, McDonald's, Jack in the Boxes, etc. Despite each fast food joint giving a modicum of difference in their product, ultimately they're all selling burgers and fries. Now take the computing industry, specifically Intel and AMD. Intel last year released their Core i7 chips, radically changing the architecture on the boards and the way the different components communicate and transfer data. They were competing with AMD who was starting to catch back up. One industry competes by giving us more of the same, another by giving us something different. Which is more exciting?

Computer chips and hamburgers aren't exactly apples to apples comparisons, but if I were to choose a chip to go with, it'd be Intel because of this new tech. It's innovative. If AMD next innovated, I'd go that way. Whereas with fast food my primary factor is distance. Which one is closest because they're really all the same? And even then, the experience isn't that exciting. It's quick, relatively cheap, and temporarily filling but nothing special.

So, MMOs need to get WoW out of their minds and eyesight. Enough new MMOs trying to imitate WoW's success have come out proving that's impossible. McDonald's will always be king. WoW will always be on top - at least if the same thing is regurgitated over and over again with only superficial differences (secret sauce vs mayonnaise).

What we need is an Intel philosophy, rethinking the technology, the approach, the fundamental foundation and architecture of what an MMO can be. That's hard for a multi-billion dollar industry where, despite having a product whose prime focus is fun, really watches the numbers first and the design in service to numbers second.

And what I think you all were getting at in the show was a quest for this new direction - that MMOs don't have to stagnate, that we can branch in a new direction. And ultimately we're looking for a unified theory of MMO design, so to speak. There's something out there that will get us over this WoW sized hump - or mountain, as seems to be the case. I'm not a designer. I don't even know how to begin to approach this problem except to cater to my own personal tastes, which might not be what we're looking for.

Perhaps more emphasis on engagement with story and character, as Michael suggested, is one part. Another might be hiding many of the "gamey" features and systems behind something more humanly interactive. Not sure exactly what that would look like though. The point is, we've got to stop looking backwards either at WoW as the only viable business model or at past games with rose-colored glasses of nostalgia.

'Kudos to Jaxom92' by Andrew

Submitted on 2009-09-12 21:16:43 CST
Amazing comment - and I think your analogy is bang-on. Would love to hear this brought up as a reader mail on the show to hear Darren/Karen's opinion.

'Good to listen to the show again' by Shalimar616

Submitted on 2009-09-20 13:52:53 CST
Hey Gang,

I have been away too long. It was so great to sit down and once again listen to all my favorite voices.

I am looking to rolling up my sleeves and fighting with the Mic here real soon.

It feels like a Home Coming to listen again to the show.

Troy
AKA Travels With Troy, EQual Perspectives

'Back @ Token' by Zulika
Submitted on 2009-10-06 08:53:01 CST
It is a solo thing as far as my lack of interest in raiding. Being 1 of the needed # of raiders to accomplish something doesn;t reward me as the challenge does not feel substantial.

What I expect is the story to continue. Books are just short stories and are not interactive.

Every one of these games promise an epic ever changing and advancing storyline that you feel you are a part of. What they deliver is a book;s worth of story and the same repetitive game mechanic when it is done.

End of the game does not equal max level unless you are playing Tetris. I have finished many single player games RPGs without getting to max level.