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Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up. We're Talking #37
Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:00 GMT [download/play]

- Introductions
- Listener mail/What we're playing
- Gamer ADD: Where have all the good games gone?
- Why no hype for WoW?
- Blog of the Week:

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Episode 37 Discussion Thread

'A whole lot of generalization' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-17 23:50:52 CST
The blogger community is as diverse as any other community - from casual posters, to more serious writers, commentary focused bloggers, etc., including those who have really crossed over into news and editorial.

Bloggers who are merely talking about the games they play, whatever games those happen to be, are going to be very representative of the average gamer. I personally find very few of the bloggers that I read elitist and fanboi crazy. I don't know who you are reading but I'd suggest that you stop reading them if they are really as bad as your comments make them sound. :-)

I dont think there's any hidden agenda about the lack of blog posts about WOTLK. For bloggers who have played WOW since launch and are still playing, I'm sure they're enjoying it but it just might not rise to post worthy for them anymore. Besides which Blizzard hyped WOTLK enough themselves. Until players have their new and unique stories and experiences to share, what exactly are you expecting them to be posting about? We've known the feature set, classes and basic content for a LONG TIME. I'm not surprised that the blogosphere isn't creaming WOTLK right now.

'Sticking with one game' by Epicsound
Submitted on 2008-11-18 01:55:56 CST
Regarding "most MMO players to be more like Karen: Most MMO'ers I know stuck with Wow or EQ for 4 years. A few MMO's came out that didn't keep our interest but most people are like Karen. Eve is another good example of how players stick with games for many years. To some people like me, MMO's sometimes are good for a month or two and then on to the next thing. I still stick with my favorite games even if I try a few while I play my favorite.

Secondly: Brent wasn't right about Warhammer in my opinion. They still have have plenty of satisfied players and it's normal for some to quit after launch. It will be a very popular MMO for years to come.

Lastly concerning "bloggers" being influential: I think they are given too much credit in this discussion. I can't think of any gamer I know that would stop playing a game because a blogger said it wasn't good. What Brent said about Warhammer was a great example - people decided for themselves if they liked it or not. We all tried it and some liked it and some didn't. What Brent said was his opinion. If it's fun - they play it.

I think internet writers are entertaining but not necessarily the way I judge whether I will play a game or not.

'Agree with Epic' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-18 11:31:12 CST
I think you give bloggers too much credit and worse too much blame for what is or isn't happening in the MMO player community. It appears to me, that the claims regarding the strength and influence of bloggers is coming from bloggers who also happen to get paid to write about games, I feel like I'm hearing some skewed opinions about the relevance of blogging from that sector. Blogging is big and growing but I do think that the average person can discern opinion from fact.

I regularly read about 50 blogs each week. Of those there are less than a half dozen whose opinions can influence me into giving something more consideration than I might have otherwise. They can do so because they've proven to be level headed and not given to fanboi outbursts, mood shifts and short attention spans. However, of those, only two play for the same reasons I play or have similar in game interests, which whittles it down to only two bloggers who can possibly sway me. Two out of a sea of gaming blogs isn't really much influence or responsibility for the tide turning for or against any game. I agree with the speaker who said bloggers perhaps see issues sooner, think about them in order to write experiences which might lead to the impression if those opinions become wide spread that we started it all, when in fact we were just early observers who commented on it.

'Awesome' by welshtroll
Submitted on 2008-11-18 15:04:48 CST
A great show guys and some rather wise words delivered while discussing some of the issues facing games in the modern day MMO environment.

The level systems currently in games are very restrictive, perhaps we'll see the next generation of MMOs move away from a level = skill & power concept and gravitate toward systems that give a more balanced and less hardcore feel to games.

I've done my fair amount of jumping around following guild members, only to find that the game didn't offer us the team effectiveness we were after and we slowly drift away leaving one or two members that "clicked" with the game behind.

Thanks for the mention, made a humble gamer rather proud.

'WAR Hemmoraging Players' by Dewar
Submitted on 2008-11-18 16:55:43 CST
Some of what various people were saying about the influencers and how most people only play because their friends play hit home for me. Right now I'm still having great fun in WAR, but as people are trickling out either to WotLK or just boredom, it gets more and more lonley. It feels as if other people give up on the game so quickly, which decreases the fun for everyone who remains, who then leave, making a vicious cycle. I hope that WAR maintains a population base large enough to support decent RvR, or I might end up having to leave myself before I'm ready.

'Vanguard' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-18 23:37:06 CST
Vanguard didn't fail because of its hardcore-not-a-game-for-pussies attitude. Vanguard failed because it was released to soon, unoptimized to such an extent that it'd bring high-spec computers to a crawl (so much for brute force gaming), and riddled with bugs. They've come a long way, but they're still fixing things and to be honest I don't think the game will ever see it's true-could-have-been-potential. They're too far down the tarnished rep hole (along with Conan) to ever have hopes of getting out.

11 million people can't be wrong, I'll give you that. WoW is a great game that has broad appeal. But to imply there's not an audience for a game that gives a challenge like Vanguard is nonsense.

'Massively Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game.' by SwollenBeef
Submitted on 2008-11-19 08:43:58 CST
WoW did not so much destroy the genre as it did change the way developers think.
The biggest complaint about the old games; forced grouping. Now the common argument is, "I dont have the time to find a group in order to level." This would be the console players coming over, wanting a more singleplayer friendly game. My opinion? If you dont have the time to play an MMO, find a group or what-have-you, then stick with Peggle.

Having levels in a game has completely jumped the shark. Developers need to realize that if they set a finish line in the form of a max level, then players will do all that they can to reach it the fastest. Levels can be in the game, but i would say stop it with the level 20 is 300% better than level 19.

War is on a very thin line right now. Mythic could have hit a home run with WAR, but Mark Jacobs in all his infinite wisdom decided that it would make better business sense to emulate WoW as much as possible. As stated in the podcast, WoW was already made. Trying to make it again will only result in failure. People dont want to play WoW, and then log into WAR to play WoW again.

'....' by LealaTurkey
Submitted on 2008-11-19 09:45:34 CST
@ Michael: Thank you thank you thank you thank you and AMEN.

And Jute you really did hit the nail on the head about the reason for the lack of WoW hype around VW land/blogosphere. A big part of the reason is also because the huge and active WoW blogging community is its own separate entity. And if you aren't really paying attention to them because you don't play WoW, then that's the disconnect.


And for me personally, as the red-headed (literally) WoW playing stepchild of the VW group now. I wouldn't mind seeing the gap bridged a little bit more. It doesn't have to be this childish "gang" thing like you mentioned where its "us against them".

'East ports? or what was that u all were saying?' by FarSpace
Submitted on 2008-11-19 18:08:32 CST
One good thing about SUWT is how there are lots of comments, I like reading comments. people have some good interesting thoughts


East ports? or what was that u all were saying? What are those? I wonder why I never heard of them, or anything that sounds like that, interesting.

So how's that lag in Eve with their new stackingOI whatever? Do you think it will be used in other games?

What is one of the most important things fir MMO's to start doing in the future or again? like putting story into the missions like adventure games but coop? Anything else?

Great show, and comments, I enjoy it allot, thanks

'E-sports' by Jaye
Submitted on 2008-11-20 09:17:21 CST
Not East ports, but E-sports. The discussion was a reaction to ScytheNoire's criciticsm of WoW becoming an E-sport. I'm no expert on it, but Darren's analogy of "The Running Man" seems to sum up what E-sports means.

'Still Havn't Found What I'm looking for.' by Alces
Submitted on 2008-11-21 16:40:10 CST
I have been searching for several years now for a game that fits my wants and perhaps even my needs. After trying several and being in beta or "pre-beta" testing of a few, I still have not found what I am looking for.

After hearing you and your guess talk either about our around the topic of playing with a group in game via raid groups, guilds and the like - I thought I would ask you to think about games which offer the opposite.

Which MMORPG game, or games, can an individual play, enjoy all its content, and explore all parts of the world. I state a MMORPG instead of a first person shooter (or something kin to it) because I feel they are better developed and games such as Neverwinter Nights is too restrictive . And if I feel like teaming up with a friend for a while, I can. I do not play console games, if I want to sit in front of the TV, I'll watch a movie.

I do play MMO's that needs team play, so it is not like I am anti-social. Just the contrary. As a Youth Pastor, I deal with people everyday, 60 hours a week, especially youth and young adults. I want to just have some me time, a few hours of solace, a MMO sabbatical. I stopped playing WoW when I kept being invited by people ages 7 - 70 who know me to raid with them. AoC was a waste of money, I didn't like the table-top Warhammer, so I never played that MMO. I enjoyed the hey-day of Age of Camelot and UO when it still had its huge volunteer corp. I currently play Guild Wars with my son.

I want to be able to start and complete something on my own. I prefer fantasy settings, but if there is a good Sci-fi option, I'll take it. Also, if I can get away without being a Fed-Ex guy in armor that would be a bonus.

Any suggestions?


Alces (Pronounced "Al-ceez")

'Dear Alces,' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-21 20:59:21 CST
Taking all you said into consideration, I would probably suggest EQ2 if you haven't tried it. There's a lot to do in there in terms of adventuring, questing (though, it can still get a little Fed-Ex but not too bad), crafting, collecting, and now I think they even have a card game built into the client (correct me if I'm wrong on that guys). It's a fantasy setting with nice environment and models. Can run really well on a modest computer. Good community over all (better than most at least). And easy to solo if that's what you like.

The classes are fun too. I really enjoyed my dirge and bruiser.

'WoW' by Paganini
Submitted on 2008-11-22 13:56:49 CST
Britney Spears has sold more albums than Jimi Hendrix. That doesn't mean I have to acknowledge Spears as a better musician. WoW is a good game, but calling it the greatest MMO of all time because '11 million can't be wrong' is a bit ridiculous.

'The Britney spears defense?' by SwollenBeef
Submitted on 2008-11-27 12:38:48 CST
Im sorry Paganini but your analogy using Jimi vs Spears just does not work. First off, you are looking at two entirely different generations. The social structure was just something totally different than what we have today.
Another thing, the quality of most MMOs has been subpar. Devs want to re-make WoW, gamers dont want to play 2 games of WoW. This is why you have stagnation in the genre currently.
You know what, let me use your Hendrix analogy.
Generational issues aside, the MMOs that are being released today would be like Britney Spears emulating Hendrix.

'SwollenBeef' by Paganini
Submitted on 2008-12-01 01:22:09 CST
You're defending WoW, which I wasn't attacking. The only thing I was arguing against was the logic that you can measure quality of something purely through its mass appeal. Surely no one can question WoW's success, but you have to look at more than its player base to determine if it is far and away the best MMO of all time.

'SwollenBeef' by Paganini
Submitted on 2008-12-01 01:26:01 CST
You're defending WoW, which I wasn't attacking. The only thing I was arguing against was the logic that you can measure quality of something purely through its mass appeal. Surely no one can question WoW's success, but you have to look at more than its player base to determine if it is far and away the best MMO of all time.

'I agree...' by bildo84
Submitted on 2008-12-01 20:00:26 CST
We are elitist.

But that's not why you don't see a lot of hype about Lich King ahead of time. In my eyes, it's because the MMO General Bloggers (those of us who play many games and are always trying new ones, moving around, etc.) were too busy with WAR or their game of choice (LotRO and EQ2 and EVE for some).

As Leala said, there's plenty of folks who blog and play WoW and are stoked (were stoked now) for Lich King. They're just not part of the more open-ended MMO Blogosphere.