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Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up. We're Talking #32
Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:01:00 GMT [download/play]

  • Introductions
  • Listener mail/What we're playing
  • Solo and Group
  • Public Quests and RvR...the future?
  • Blog of the Week

  • Darren -
  • Karen - Journey's with Jaye
  • Julie - No Prisoners, No Mercy
  • Mike - Combobulator

  • Jumped the Shark
  • My Take on War
  • WAR Impressions
  • WAR Comments
  • WAR First Impressions
  • Good PvP

    Blog of the Week:
  • Serial Ganker

  • Login to post a comment
    Previous Episodes
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    Episode 32 Discussion Thread

    'Warhammer Online' by TranquilAbyss
    Submitted on 2008-08-24 16:28:33 CST
    I see two types of people with this topic.

    Those who can see what Warhammer can be come


    Those who see what Warhammer is now.

    "Fan boys" see what i can be and same with developers.

    The MMO community compares it to every other game and only based off of what they can see now. They have not way of seeing what it could be with out learning the lure.

    I have not played War yet and I fit under the second category. But I am going to give the game a chance and I suggest others should do the same if they are interested in it.

    Don't let the raging podcasters scare you :)

    'I don't give a rats behind' by telstar
    Submitted on 2008-08-24 23:35:58 CST
    Great show - Excellent guests,
    Not to be rude but I don't give a rat's behind about what MMO Brent likes or dislikes. He reads the MMO news to me and thats what I want. However, there will be plenty of upset fanboys crying over their figurines due to Brent's words about Warhammer. There are people the respect his opinons on what games are "good".

    Wouldn't it have been more appropriate for Brent to put out a "review" of Warhammer after the game came out? I think he just brought down a ton of peoples excitement about the game before it even had a chance to make an impression.

    To say that fans of VW should just "nod theire head and ignore what Brent says is saying that they shouldn't bother to read his blogs. If you respect Brents opinions on games then you would read his thoughts.

    I don't want drama from what is supposed to get me excited about gaming. I find myself listening to "How I WOW" and "The Instance" more they seem to really enjoy gaming and get me pumped to play.

    And I don't even play WOW lol

    ' :)' by FarSpace
    Submitted on 2008-08-25 04:26:33 CST
    Personally I never expect anything from an MMOG's until at least 6 months to a year, but if I can get interesting info on a game then that's fun, whether it is good or bad as long as it's their honest opinion. Meaning like there not trying to kill the game because their jilted like they do allot on forums.

    So yeah cool, I hope the developers can get some good info from both criticism and compliments and make the game awesome by the time I play it.

    Shoot, I'm actually still expecting WAR to at least be what wow never could be already and still it's own game, and in like a year it will be awesome I'll bet. But of course if it was priced like CCP does EVE then I might think it was a bit closer to awesome right when it came out, that $59 price tag is a huge leap of faith to be taking so early out of the gate with an MMORPG anyways imo.

    P.S. great show, I love it :)

    'GW FTL' by Kirath
    Submitted on 2008-08-25 08:08:29 CST
    So sick of Warhammer fanboys posting on every site on the internet telling everyone their opinion is wrong. Get over your selves and get over your game. GW hasn't put out a decent set of rules in forever. The game itself is bloated and boring. I own plenty of models because that is what they do best. Mythic didn't ruin Warhammer, GW did years ago.

    'Great Show!' by Orkomage
    Submitted on 2008-08-25 14:31:58 CST
    I thought this was a great show so just had to /golf clap it. Good topics, debate, and humor. =)

    I would agree that Warhammer certainly isn't a leap forward, but from my point of view, the change in scenery of the grind is an impressive side step for the mmo genre.

    When I played WOW, I always enjoyed battlegrounds at all the different level brackets and would constantly queue up for them. The problem was I didn't receive any adventure xp and it took me forever and a day to make it to max level. With WAR, I enjoy the fact that if I'm doing a pq, regular q, crawl, killing random crap, joining a scenario (queueing up wherever you are is a huge plus) rvr'ing and taking locations on the map, or just random killing other players, I am always earning experience to advance my character. That seamless blending of pvp and pve is a welcome aspect that I hope to see in more mmo's in the future. There are multiple things to do and accomplish, and everyone of them results in character advancement. What was a distraction that slowed my advancement down before is now a prodcutve element for my character.

    I also think in stark contrast to WOW, that WAR encourages group play right from the start. In WOW, soloing seems to be the prefered method except running instances for loot and quests during the grind. WAR seems to break down the jaded mmo gamer that resists playing with others, by allowing folks to pop in and out of groups at any time. You receive a message letting you know available groups in the area on your screen, as well as being able to search nearby to see the groups available, who is in the groups, and what they are working on, all with a single click of a button. The BEST part of mmo's in my opinion is the interraction among other players, and encouraging this interraction I believe is a positive element that other mmo's should try to adopt more.

    Anyways, good show all, looking forward to the next one!

    --Shawn (Orko,Zorko)

    'o.O' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-08-25 19:28:49 CST
    I may be forward in commenting, having not played Warhammer Online, but how much can a game evolve and still be in the same genre? WoW when released was very much like Everquest, with some enhancements. There was no jump from caveman to spaceman in terms evolution between the two games. Yet now WoW (an I.P. that a flat out rips-off of the Games Workshop Warhammer I.P.) is the MMO every other is compared to.

    Could it be possible that expectations for MMO evolution are just to high? Many bloggers and podcasters like Brent may have been around a long time and want some radical changes in the genre. Well what are they? What kind of game mechanics makes for a more evolved MMO?

    Perhaps the olde tyme MMO'ers aren't really looking for another MMO, but a whole new genre.

    'Evolution vs. Revolution' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-08-25 21:22:24 CST
    @Seritaph: EverQuest was a fine and amazing game in its day, but when WoW and EQ2 came out, the standard for what kind of game you could put out and succeed with changed quite dramatically. When you look at the base mechanics of the games, WoW and EQ are not that far apart. But when you play them, especially as a new player in the genre, they are a long, long way apart. Things changed a lot in five years.

    Now, four years after WoW and EQ2, WAR has come along. Does it represent a change as big as the one between EQ and WoW?

    Nobody expects a jump from the wheel to maglev trains (except Dr. Bartle), but does WAR bring things ahead another step or not?

    'Why MMO's are what they are today' by Alces
    Submitted on 2008-08-26 08:22:58 CST
    There has been a lot of talk lately, on this podcast and elsewhere, about current MMORPG character class, slogging through to level up, not being able to explore all parts of a virtual world no matter "level" or "class", having to form raiding parties, public quest, and having a true MMO (instead of a place to meet and greet and then go off to instances.)

    While I have not played Ultima Online since they got rid of the player volunteer programs several years ago (i.e. Counselor and Seers), UO had all those things which I hear people state they wish their MMO had. As said, I have not played UO in some time, but when I did play, it did have all those things. When you created your character you did pick what you thought you wanted your profession to be - however, it was what you did in game the decided your profession (there ready was no "classes" in the same way WOW and other games have now.) If you decided you wanted to be a fighter, you built up your strength, dex and other related skills through practice. There was a cap of skill points so you could not be the best fighter you could be and the best mage you could be. But if you were a fighter and wanted to become a mage, you could start practicing magic-user skills and ignore fighter skills. Your fighter skills would drop as your mage skills increased. There was no slogging through levels. And if you just wanted to be a crafts-person, you could do that as well and become a master armor maker for example.

    Karen, you would like this - There was also no restrictions as to where you could go. If you wandered by yourself into a cave full dragons and got you butt kicked, you learned your lesson. However, you could also come across a half-dozen people trying to wipe out a bunch of demons and you could join in to help. Or if you were in trouble, you could call for help and hope someone would be close enough to "hear" you and come to your rescue. There were public quest. For example, meaning that one weekend there might be a orc attach on a city and then anyone could join into that.

    Yes, there were problems with it (poor graphics and lag to name my top two complaint), but the biggest problem with UO was that there was a long of players who wanted a "Care-Bear" game and complained. The designers tried to address these problems and often did so poorly. However, I truly believe that the reason we have instances, static classes, restricted areas in a virtual world, and the need to raiding parties all had to do with the negative feedback UO receive for having an world that you could get killed by going the wrong way ("No one told me I couldn't go that way'), complains about too many people in a battle area ("he stole my kill"), crying about losing gear ("I died and then someone stole all my gear off my body before I could get resurrected ") etc.

    Let me say this as plan as possible, the reason we have MMOs such as we do now is because game designers are only giving the majority of players what they asked for over the years by complaining about the first handful of MMOs a decade ago.



    'Alces makes a point...' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-08-26 17:37:05 CST
    There's always a group who look back to the "classics" as the pinnacle. The Online Gamers Anthology just got done reminiscing about the "gold box" games and Pools of Radiance. There's a good chunk of people who think the spirit of EQ died with the release of Luclin (and everything since) and long for the original trilogy. D&D players don't like the new ruleset. I could go on, but the point is this: does evolution automatically make for a better gaming experience?

    I never played UO, but from Alces description I think I would have liked it a lot!

    '@Wilhem2451' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-08-26 18:49:41 CST
    Well okay, so WoW's big evolution is that they took a game like EQ and made it more accessible to larger audience and modernized it. Yes, this is huge an it's obviously paid off for them. But it could be argued that in doing this they killed social interaction, the risk-vs-reward feeling of accomplishment, and other game mechanics by making it so easy to solo.

    From what I've heard about Warhammer, people are pretty excited about public quests which encourages and rewards more group interaction. It's also been said that it effectively merges PVP and PVE, which if it's true is a huge step in MMO evolution in my opinion. And although these things may seem simple and obvious, something tells me that coming up with these ideas and making them work is not that simple.

    So does WAR take it to the next step? Well has the "next step" been defined? Have they taken down walls, much like WoW did? Did they bring anything new to the genre? Sounds like they did.

    'About PvP and why RvR might be better :)' by FarSpace
    Submitted on 2008-08-26 22:19:14 CST
    I always liked the idea of PvP and always keep trying to get into it.

    But it seems to always get to the same result for me. I get my but handed to me.

    You have to be perfect and have the best stuff and grind to get it to even have a chance, and then, I will still loose because I'm not able to do all that stuff. and it is realy dificult to find anyone at the same level. or there those people who just look for total noobs compared to them or way lower level and win that way, personal I get no benifit from that so I don't do it.

    So in RvR type stuff at least I could help out or that is if the game has RvR in the right way.

    And the right way should be were every one can contribute in one way or the other to a victory or at least not getting killed in 2 seconds.

    EVE for example has RvR and single engagements of all kinds. I never ever win when on my own but in a group I have a chance and most people like the fleet v fleet because of that reason.

    In Tabula Rasa you can do it but it takes some effort, the devs for TR need to get it done better and maybe they will.

    So WAR has got the right idea and so I wish them well.

    'First time listener' by Darasimi
    Submitted on 2008-08-29 05:31:12 CST
    Hey guys, this is the first time I've heard this podcast and I love it! You've got yourself a new regular listner :D

    btw what's the song at the end of the podcast?

    'Welcome' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-08-29 07:53:38 CST
    ...Darasimi, glad you like the show.

    You know what, I forgot the name of the song off hand ;)

    'Bored with gaming....' by Edward78
    Submitted on 2008-09-05 12:42:42 CST
    Here is my prob. I am bored to death as for gaming, all the MMORPGs seem to be made for pansy whiners now. Screaming, wha boo we hate PvP, so MMORPGs are 99.999% carebear now. Warhammer isn't really boing anything, it is just a big WoW battleground, which is technically PvP, but what about systems like Shadowbane, build your city & defend it or take over or burn down another guilds city. Kill someone loot the corpse, there is Eve online, but god that is boring. Darkfall online once again promises beta.

    'All that talk..' by nicholsml
    Submitted on 2008-09-06 09:07:58 CST
    All that discussion about how Warhammer is a clone of WoW, when WoW was even more of a clone of the games that came before it. When WoW launched it didn't add a single thing to MMO's. Nothing new besides different graphics. At least War is bringing a handful of new ideas even if they re-use the "tried and true" also to augment the game. I think the "WoW fanbois" get so upset because they are jealous that so many people are drifting to this game and they can smell the stench of death on world of warcraft. MMO's don't last forever and they go from the top of the genre to having to merge their last two servers because no one is playing anymore in the blink of an eye. So to all the fanbois ot there, like Darren, enjoy WoW while you can because nothing will change the fact that the game is getting really dated and you can only rehash an MMO so many times, people are looking for something new because WoW has become dead and bloated.