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Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up. We're Talking #31
Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:13:00 GMT [download/play]

  • Introductions
  • Listener mail/What we're playing
  • Solo and Group
  • Public Quests and RvR...the future?
  • Blog of the Week

  • Darren -
  • Karen - Journeys with Jaye
  • Shawn and Patrick - How I WoW

  • All by Myself
  • Freedom of Solitutde
  • Future of Grouping
  • RvR = Revolutionary
  • RvR = Not so much...

    Blog of the Week:
  • Waaagh

  • Login to post a comment
    Previous Episodes
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    Episode 31 Discussion Thread

    'Great drama' by Token
    Submitted on 2008-08-03 23:34:38 CST
    Really good guests this week, Shawn and Patrick are always awesome as Patrick would say. This was probably the most entertaining show yet for me. Some of the criticisms brought up in this weeks show I was nodding in agreement with. I stream the show infrequently from the website when bored rather than download and load onto a player for a bunch of reasons.
    I think the main problem for me is that the round table format is only useful when people have something to say that I want to hear. Insider industry information for example works on round table because you get to hear the information clearly. When it's just opinionated bloggers you may as well go through the guest list asking everyone their favourite colour, then agree with them that the colour they chose is their favourite colour. Then pat them on the back.
    Have an argument! Swear and cuss! Entertain me! I love drama :D

    'Hay! I'm a fan boy!' by FarSpace
    Submitted on 2008-08-03 23:36:41 CST
    Hay! I'm a fan boy!

    That's right! I'm a fan boy of this show baby, yeah!

    Who does not love this show, no body! That's who!

    About M&M&O's :) and RvR , personally as long as the MMO has a great community, that is what I look for. Normally regular games seem more lonely no matter how many people are playing it when it is not connected to the net, sure there are some, but with MMO's community is way more accessible to me.

    '62 to go' by Heartless
    Submitted on 2008-08-04 12:15:05 CST
    Thanks, but no thanks. I can't continue to listen to a podcast that continually gets it wrong in favor of misinformation instead of opinion or fact.

    'Love the show' by Jute
    Submitted on 2008-08-04 12:34:09 CST
    I'm somewhat confused by the post above mine...

    In any case, I really enjoy the show.

    I had one comment about grouping. There were very good points about the obstacles to grouping, but one thing I've never seen people mention is the effect raiding has had on grouping.

    In old Everquest people grouped because they had to, but also because some really great gear could be gotten by a single group. My favorite times in old EQ were not the raids, but the heart pounding, nail biting times in some of the dungeons while trying to get gear. Every single member of the group had to be on their game or it would be a painful wipe. It took skill and it built strong bonds between the players who narrowly escaped death.

    Eventually the game shifted from that to Raids and less and less time was spent by people doing dungeons with a single group and more and more time spent raiding or preparing to raid.

    I'd love to see challenging content for single groups again become more the norm over large raids, but that's not the industry direction.

    In any case... keep up the great shows!

    'Interesting Stuff' by VanHemlock
    Submitted on 2008-08-04 13:55:30 CST
    Soloing: I think games are becoming more solo because players want it, in turn, simply because of such bad PUG experiences. We've only ourselves to blame.

    The best answer I ever saw to 'Why do I play MMOs if I don't want to play with strangers' was in the comments of my own blog, from Melmoth (

    "The obvious answer is, in the bad form of another question, if you go to the park to play a game of frisbee with your friends, would you automatically be expected to include everyone else at the park in your game?"

    Public Quests: Seen attempts at this kind of thing before:

    AC2 had a large open-ended resource collection thing going on, which would lead to the various ruined towns being rebuilt in subsequent patches.

    Jumpgate: Each faction there had a number of collaborative mining/trading tasks that a whole faction could contribute to. I forget exactly what the resulting shipyard and orbital structures actually did, but was definitely a job for everyone pulling together.

    Tabula Rasa: They added 'Flashpoint Missions' toward the end fo my visit. Zonewide radio message quest dialogues that everyone in a zone got simply by being there. You'd all have to hunt down a nummber of special enemies, and when killed, everyone's mission would complete and could be handed in for xp/dyed armour. There was indeed an awful lot of nose-picking going on.

    Does Warcraft's Gates of An'raq count, or am I just flamebaiting now?

    The WAR go at it does indeed sound quite evolved, and I'm definitely curious about the nuts and bolts of it!

    @Heartless: I'm sure we'd all be a lot less confused if instead of just calling 'misinformation' everywhere, you or Keen could take the time to patiently explain with sound replacement information, setting us non-Beta outside observers a bit straighter! :)

    Anglo-French Deathmatch! Woohoo! Nearly a thousand years of simmering resentment, finally resolved on SUWT!

    'Muahaha' by Luper
    Submitted on 2008-08-04 23:28:09 CST
    I have been trying to get into beta for War Hammer. =( They wont let me in. I'm too uber (sarcasm).

    How I WoW interviews sound like VoV interviews. Har har ^_^

    As far as solo vs group, grouping should be worth more experience because of the effort it takes to get a good group together and also surviving in group dungeons is more challenging (or should be). I love group content. I dont think group content defines an MMO, but it offers (and should offer) some of the best content in games. I think that the subway analogy was interesting. You are just one of those people on the subway. You have the choice to interact with others or not. MMOs are very similiar to real life. I don't think people should have to interact with one another, but I think that the interaction between players should be encouraged.

    I'd have to disagree with the assumption that solo experience is faster. I think that in a really good group, you can attain more experience then soloing. I believe this because most group mobs give more experience, and when you are grouped, you kill mobs much faster than when you are killing solo.

    PuGs do hurt the group mentality, but that shouldn't discourage people from grouping. I have had so many experiences with PuGs- some amazingly fun, others horridly horrible. Group dungeons need to lure players in. I believe that a good way to do this is not only by making more group dungeons have "phat lewts" but also by giving the players more interaction with one another while doing group content. Also, dungeon graphics can make dungeons way more interesting. I know I've been in a few dungeons where everyone in the group just stopped to look around. Moments like that are truly enlightening.

    Public quests sound interesting. I'm still confused as to how they work. I haven't experienced it first hand, so it's hard for me to comment on this topic. Rewarding players for their efforts sounds like a great thing! I have been in so many raids where I feel like I'm the only healer, etc. I'm sure others can express the same feeling. I would love to see something implemented where it calculated how much effort each person did and gave them loot or experienced based on their efforts. This would have to be something that calculated each class based on their jobs. I have no idea how that would be implemented.

    There are always variables that deter or increase the want for group content.

    ~Luper (Voyages of Vanguard)

    'Group or no Group' by kudesnik
    Submitted on 2008-08-06 04:13:03 CST
    I came from DDO, and I can say it's most group friendly MMORPG game out there,
    Surely you can solo, but can't really solo everything. You really need group of people to finish most of the quests. Especially on elite difficulty level ( and most people eventually want to do elite since it give you better loot and more favor points). Some people prefer play in guild group, as far as me for the most part I don't care, I like pugs, I play DDO since beta in 2005 and only 2-3 times I had bad experience with pugs. Generally players of DDO very easy on noobs :) and in fast trying to help as much as they can. The only exclusion may be is high level raids. Also want to say about low-mid level content. Unlike other mmo I see people constantly running low level quests to level other toons - or due to different style of play ( permadeath for example, gosh I wonder if that style even exists in other MMORPG ). mid/low level items still have good value, since you can't use lvl16(level cap at the moment) item for example on level 5 character. For the most part I can see 5-10 LFM on servers for all levels from 1-3 to lvl 16 raids. So finding group usually not a problem. Since voice chat build into DDO game, it defacto standard to have it's on - you don't have to talk but absolutely have to listen. But I think voice communication give you better experience. If you get "bad" person in your group, well since DDO quests are instance based - all u do is regroup without that person and start quest from scratch. Group sizes in ddo up to 6 ppl, raid up to 12.


    Battle sorc.
    Guild : Nameless.
    Server Ghallanda.

    'blip' by Sente
    Submitted on 2008-08-06 16:30:08 CST
    Solo vs team: In most MMOs there is a fair amount of hassle around teaming up. Combining that with a chance that you will have some jerks in a team or people with entirely different expectations from the team and soloing does not sound so bad.

    And combine that with the only team activity that is typically supported well is kill enemies for xp or loot. If you want to follow a story properly in an MMO you either play solo or manage to get into a team with likeminded people, assuming the game mechanics allow you all to experience it properly.

    Missions/quests are from a story sense strictly solo in most cases, they may just have scaled up the opposition so you require more people.

    I am as curious as Van Hemlock about what the misinformation was. I might be able to guess the topic given the identitiy of the concerned citizen, but apart from that I have no idea.

    Public quests as a high level concept is not new, how it plays out in that Warhammer game remains to be seen.
    Anarchy Online also has some kind of "public goal" mechanism where one can basically contribute part of the xp gained to ther benefit of some common "research" goal which everyone can benefit from once it is reached.

    'Great as usual!' by Oakstout
    Submitted on 2008-08-07 15:47:56 CST
    Awesome show. I would like to clarify that I don't necessarily want to hear a bunch of people shouting their different opinions at each other, but I would like to hear different opinions, I don't really want to hear arguing, just a little diversity is all.

    Back when I played EQ, it was hard to solo, but I don't remember too many people even wanting too. I know the Necro was the only class, if played right, you could solo thru the game, but I don't remember a lot of people that I knew even wanting to play a soloable class, it just was unheard of.

    So, at some point people decided that grouping with strangers was hard work and they wanted something easier. Blizzard noticed this problem and made WoW very soloable and less group friendly. Maybe its a fall back from their days when people would have more fun playing Diablo online by themselves in a password protected room or that grouping in EQ was all there was and they wanted something new. But I can assure you that Blizzard started the whole class soloing craze and now there is no going back.

    'Hypocrisy and a shameless plug...' by smush
    Submitted on 2008-08-07 19:39:12 CST
    We did manage to touch on a little of the 'blog-o-steria' that occurred from SUWT Episode #30 and your so called hypocrisy in our last podcast.

    Don't swoop down to their level. That's our job.

    I'd rather SUWT stick to bringing a touch of class to the MMO podcasting community.

    Leave the immature nonsensical banter to us. :)

    Jason (resident drunken idiot of Channel Massive)

    'Oh..and btw...' by smush
    Submitted on 2008-08-07 19:54:13 CST
    We don't necessarily rip on podcasts (although podcasts aren't immune). It's the Blog-o-Sphere (TIM) that get da steel end of of the hammer.

    Hense the segment Blog-O-Steria

    Jason (resident drunken idiot of Channel Massive)

    '"M&M&O's" ' by FarSpace
    Submitted on 2008-08-25 23:41:31 CST
    Hi, :) I just wanted to let you know that the reason I said "M&M&O's" is because someone said that or something close to that during this podcast, when they meant to just say MMO's i was making a joke by repeating it, lol.

    I know, I'm a geak, but yeah you guys are awesome, thanks for this show as always.