To post comments, please login.

Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

Subscribe via iTunes  Subscribe to RSS Feed  

This Podcast Sponsored by:

Help the Collective. Become a supporter or sponsor on the Support Page.
Shut Up. We're Talking #30
Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:44:00 GMT [download/play]

  • Introductions
  • Listener mail/What we're playing
  • Game Project Management
  • Long in the Tooth
  • Blog of the Week

  • Darren -
  • Karen - Journey's with Jaye
  • John - The Ancient Gaming Noob
  • Scott - Pumping Irony

  • WAR Project Management
  • WAR Thoughts
  • Complicated WAR
  • Incomplete Content
  • Crying
  • WAR Cuts
  • Too old?

    Blog of the Week:
  • Ruur Squig

  • Login to post a comment
    Previous Episodes
    Episode #77 - Duration: 2925 - Released: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:16:01 +0000
    Episode #76 - Duration: 7730 - Released: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:34:01 +0000
    Episode #75 - Duration: 4659 - Released: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:57:48 +0000
    Episode #74 - Duration: 4071 - Released: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:22:45 +0000
    Episode #73 - Duration: 4943 - Released: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:41:07 +0000
    Episode #72 - Duration: 4707 - Released: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:28:52 +0000
    Episode #71 - Duration: 3820 - Released: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:39:28 +0000
    Episode #70 - Duration: 4623 - Released: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:51:32 +0000
    Episode #69 - Duration: 4837 - Released: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:07:07 +0000
    Episode #68 - Duration: 01:13:32 - Released: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:34:00 GMT
    Episode #67 - Duration: 01:12:09 - Released: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:24:00 GMT
    Episode #66 - Duration: 00:59:30 - Released: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:26:00 GMT
    Episode #65 - Duration: 01:23:43 - Released: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:03:00 GMT
    Episode #64 - Duration: - Released: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:51:00 GMT
    Episode #63 - Duration: 01:13:26 - Released: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:52:00 GMT
    Episode #62 - Duration: 01:12:04 - Released: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:28:00 GMT
    Episode #61 - Duration: 01:26:12 - Released: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:26:00 GMT
    Episode #60 - Duration: 01:57:27 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:34:00 GMT
    Episode #59 - Duration: 01:37:24 - Released: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:48:00 GMT
    Episode #58 - Duration: 01:21:01 - Released: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:45:00 GMT
    Episode #57 - Duration: 01:47:46 - Released: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:01:00 GMT
    Episode #56.5 - Duration: 00:02:21 - Released: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:26:00 GMT
    Episode #56 - Duration: 01:01:53 - Released: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:41:00 GMT
    Episode #55 - Duration: 01:16:27 - Released: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:00 GMT
    Episode #54 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:51:00 GMT
    Episode #53 - Duration: 01:31:47 - Released: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:12:00 GMT
    Episode #52.5 - Duration: 00:04:12 - Released: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:43:00 GMT
    Episode #52 - Duration: 01:04:24 - Released: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:35:00 GMT
    Episode #51 - Duration: 01:17:30 - Released: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:49:00 GMT
    Episode #50 - Duration: 01:35:33 - Released: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:15:00 GMT
    Episode #49 - Duration: 01:03:31 - Released: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:27:00 GMT
    Episode #48 - Duration: 01:13:44 - Released: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:25:00 GMT
    Episode #47 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:21:00 GMT
    Episode #46 - Duration: 01:27:11 - Released: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:05:00 GMT
    Episode #45 - Duration: 01:04:36 - Released: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:01:00 GMT
    Episode #44 - Duration: 00:56:47 - Released: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:15:00 GMT
    Episode #43.1 - Duration: 00:18:59 - Released: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:11:00 GMT
    Episode #43 - Duration: 00:59:34 - Released: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:24:00 GMT
    Episode #42 - Duration: 01:11:28 - Released: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:14:00 GMT
    Episode #41 - Duration: 01:06:59 - Released: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:55:00 GMT
    Episode #40.5 - Duration: 00:02:50 - Released: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:48:00 GMT
    Episode #40 - Duration: 01:16:52 - Released: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:45:00 GMT
    Episode #39 - Duration: 01:08:43 - Released: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:01:00 GMT
    Episode #38 - Duration: 00:37:38 - Released: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:00 GMT
    Episode #37 - Duration: - Released: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:00 GMT
    Episode #36 - Duration: 01:10:59 - Released: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:03:00 GMT
    Episode #35 - Duration: 00:49:08 - Released: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:54:00 GMT
    Episode #34 - Duration: 01:08:50 - Released: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:38:00 GMT
    Episode #33 - Duration: 00:58:54 - Released: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:42:00 GMT
    Episode #32 - Duration: 01:03:27 - Released: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:01:00 GMT
    Episode #31 - Duration: 01:05:03 - Released: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:13:00 GMT
    Episode #30 - Duration: 00:59:20 - Released: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:44:00 GMT
    Episode #29 - Duration: 00:28:31 - Released: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:48:00 GMT
    Episode #28 - Duration: 01:09:13 - Released: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:31:00 GMT
    Episode #27 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:42:00 GMT
    Episode #26 - Duration: 01:06:47 - Released: Mon, 19 May 2008 03:10:00 GMT
    Episode #25 - Duration: 01:01:48 - Released: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:46:00 GMT
    Episode #24 - Duration: 00:57:48 - Released: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:00:00 GMT
    Episode #23 - Duration: 00:47:54 - Released: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:05:00 GMT
    Episode #22 - Duration: 01:12:16 - Released: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:54:00 GMT
    Episode #21 - Duration: 01:56:55 - Released: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 05:01:00 GMT
    Episode #20 - Duration: 00:49:01 - Released: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:08:00 GMT
    Episode #19 - Duration: 01:01:05 - Released: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:08:00 GMT
    Episode #18 - Duration: 01:08:01 - Released: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:35:00 GMT
    Episode #17 - Duration: 01:36:26 - Released: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:07:00 GMT
    Episode #16 - Duration: 01:06:39 - Released: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:58:00 GMT
    Episode #15 - Duration: 01:33:23 - Released: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:24:00 GMT
    Episode #14 - Duration: 01:24:15 - Released: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:47:00 GMT
    Episode #13 - Duration: 01:22:18 - Released: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:30:00 GMT
    Episode #12 - Duration: 01:17:38 - Released: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:55:00 GMT
    Episode #11 - Duration: 01:17:01 - Released: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:30:00 GMT
    Episode #10 - Duration: 01:00:37 - Released: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 03:33:00 GMT
    Episode #9 - Duration: 01:12:13 - Released: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:47:00 GMT
    Episode #8 - Duration: 01:24:35 - Released: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:44:00 GMT
    Episode #7 - Duration: 01:11:21 - Released: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:05:00 GMT
    Episode #6 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:13:00 GMT
    Episode #5 - Duration: 00:58:57 - Released: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:50:00 GMT
    Episode #4 - Duration: 01:13:04 - Released: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:52:00 GMT
    Episode #3 - Duration: 01:10:25 - Released: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:20:00 GMT
    Episode #2 - Duration: 01:09:48 - Released: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:20:00 GMT
    Episode #1 - Duration: 01:08:21 - Released: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:12:00 GMT

    Episode 30 Discussion Thread

    'Various' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 08:48:59 CST
    I don't think there is any evidence to show AoC numbers are dropping. True enough there are a few - perhaps the L80 rushers - who think there is nothing else to do, now they are at the top, but the vast bulk are still there and the game is still selling very well to new players. I would expect perhaps a small drop, then a steady growth. Also, those that are leaving, are saying that they will return when more content is there. Also, Vanguard didn't have more than 20% of the numbers of AoC on launch.

    I think you forget too that the significant majority are casual gamers, not the 30+ hour a week people that participate in podcasts. Comments on AoC does seem very unbalanced.

    Also, Darren's comment on Mythic using this "lost" content as the first expansion - this was pretty silly. Unless you've actually played the game, how can you judge this? The game has not even been priced. Mythic may have just taken a decision that they were offering too much content for the money paid, which they are quite entitled to do. They could also be taking a view (like WoW) that expansions rekindle interest in a flagging game, so an evolution and new content a year down the track would be better than sticking in lots of content up front, especially if it means that the players that insist on end-game content don't get what they want because there are loads of starting paths, which are unecessary (at least when the game launches).

    EQ2 - the expansions are kind of ok, but to me they are formulaic and they really don't add as much as they should. The Kunark one also brought in lots of low level equipment which was unbalancing. Content needs to be creative, not just the same old same old.

    And lastly, please, Darren learn not to "echo" everything Karen says.

    To summarise, it's still more of a "pub conversation" than a show, but I suppose that's ok. Where the show has not improved is in its comment balance. It seems to need more people with different views or an ability to give insightful comment, as opposed to snipes and jibes. It's hard to identify voices on a podcast (one of the downsides), but it can be done, if people make comments from different perspectives and this came across only very occasionally.

    Arguments make for good listening.

    'Joss Whedon "Man Love"' by Mezzum
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 10:06:09 CST
    Darren.. you just got some serious "street cred" for your apprecation of Joss Whedon. You noticed his 2 "TV" episodes that were amazing. One episode, you failed to metion the epiode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, but I will list it here it was called "Once More with Feeling" a made for TV musical, it was brilliant, and to this day, the most amazing thing I have ever seen on TV by a director, writing the music, lyrics for all the songs is mind boggling.

    The other episode you mentioned named "Hush" where the actors barely talked, he won an Emmy for.

    For those who have not watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, its worth the DVD buy. Get the first season, its a half season, so its cheap, you will be hooked after that.

    'Lost Content and Expansions' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 12:13:30 CST
    Scytale, that has got to be one of the silliest things you have ever written. (BTW, that was me, not Darren, that brought up the "better not sell me this sh*t" aspect. My first ever bleep on SUWT.)

    If Mythic promises content as part of a release, then goes back on that promise, no matter what the reason (offering too much content?), they deserve to get roasted, and they will, and doubly so if they decide to sell it to us as an expansion after the fact.

    I do not need to play the game to come to that conclusion.

    They are supposed to be the experts, the people who know about this sort of thing. They are in that business, right? They are the ones who have been pushing all the features of WAR so aggressively. If they have over-promised, then it is their mess to clean up and they shouldn't look to me to foot the bill.

    'WAR Season 2: LOST Content! Do they get off the island?' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 12:29:23 CST
    I don't even follow WAR and I caught the Mythic guys saying the content was too thin, too spread out, and quite rough around the edges. Cutting the cities (which, as it turns out, were not part of RvR anyway) allowed them to keep the content focused, polished, and even add more of it.

    Too much content? At launch? Whatever you're smoking, pass some around...

    If anything, this shows they ARE paying attention to the complaints of "content vacuum" which LOTRO experienced at launch and AoC is currently dealing with. Hopefully they'll have a fun and "finished" game at launch that lets players go from 1 to level cap with no gaps in content, and can add and expand from there.

    On the other hand, if I play WAR at all, I won't be too upset if they sell me the content off the cutting room floor rather than patching it in for free. But that attitude is likely a result of my general "meh" towards the game; it might be different if I actually cared and was looking forward to it.

    ')**(' by AlikSteel
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 17:18:05 CST
    First thing first...I loved the show.

    This is for Karen and ummm the othere two as well because I don't think thay said any thing about this....Forgit AoC and War and all them otheres. This is about Karen saying that new expansions are bad. Oh Ok she din't say that ,but she did say having a lot of expansions was a bad thing. Now this is where you lost me. How is having more to do ,a bad thing? Sure I git what you was saying about feeling like a rat on a wheel. This must had been because you was rushing your way up. EQ is as you say long in the tooth and most every thing is of a very high level. Then you go on to say that WoW was doing right by keeping every one on the same content for a long time. No you din't say that word for word ,but you did say that wow was smart by not adding expansions to there game. In my mind every one most be stuck in the same content. You allso say that EQ2 is going to loose people if thay keep adding content or expansions. Am I misssing something here? How is having more to do bad? Even if EQ2 was only adding high level content it's still content. Content(hope like heck I am spelling "content" right) has all was been a good thing to me. High ,low it don't mater where it is.

    Now that I think of it WoW most be a hamster wheel as well. If thay are never giting new content/expansions then you can not move up. Even the slower levelers like me would hit to cap and sit there for a long time with nothing to do.

    I play EQ2 and VG so lets look at how the hamster wheel looks to me. In EQ2 I (I just had to start a new account so starting over again) have not went around the wheel once yet. Yes thay did add higher level stuff at first. To give faster leveling people something to do. Now us slow levelers are happy as we can be because we will git to all this new content later on when we git to the right level. Allways something new to do. Now it seems that all the expansions that come out has low and high content. So new and old has lot's to do.

    Maybe it's just me ,but no to little expansions being add is a bad thing.

    ok I'll git of the soapbox now. every one can tell me how off the mark I am now.

    Happy Hunting
    Alik Steel

    'many thanks' by Ruur
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 17:22:00 CST
    Thank's so much.
    I'd do a two thumbs and loves suwt joke but it doesn't work as well in a comment.

    'More is not always better...' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 19:04:54 CST
    I think you are inferring more into statements made on the show than were actually meant. For example, I think Karen was actually singing more praise about EQ2 expansions and how they have not be solely focused on high end content. Certainly nobody was saying, "Less content, that's what we need!"

    The point I was trying to make with the EQ expansions is that more is not always better in the long term. EQ has a ton of content, but so much of it is at the high end, meant to retain the long term players, that a new player comes in and finds a dead world,with low end zones empty of life and grouping prospects few and far between.

    For a game where grouping is a stated requirement, it means that new players will be very few, certainly less than the number of older players that eventually leave for greener pastures.

    ')**(' by AlikSteel
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 20:30:57 CST
    Ok Wilhelm2451 I see what you are saying now.

    I will have to check out the show again after work. I got to see where my dyslexia kicked in.

    Alik Steel

    'Good show' by animagnum
    Submitted on 2008-07-21 22:41:37 CST
    I agree with most of what scytale2 says. This show is pretty entertaining but couldn't hurt from a referenced source here or there. I've certainly noticed a few bloggers have made posts about how they -- along with their fellow bloggers -- have quit AoC, but this seems to be a bit normal to me. I would expect people interested staying on top of the latest MMOs to dart from title to title.

    Regarding WAR's city/class cutbacks, the interview posted today on Massively cleared up a few things --

    Sure, some might view it as spin, but the designers make a good case.

    'A clarification' by Kendricke
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 13:30:56 CST
    I always appreciate a mention, folks, but I'd like to clarify the words which were attributed to me.

    This idea that I'd take my guild and leave if there was no level cap increase is not accurate at all. I never said it and it's not a belief I even hold.

    The closest comment I ever made on the subject was to point out that without an increase, I would most certainly have members asking if we were looking at opening a new chapter elsewhere. That's hardly the same thing as saying if there is no level increase, I take my guild elsewhere.

    'Expansions' by Gnova
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 13:48:32 CST
    One of the issues that I see with the new MMOs is that they don't release expansions quick enough, not the other way around.
    There is not enough content in a EQ2 expansion to last it's cap level playerbase a year if they do not raid 3-5 nights per week.
    SOE had it right when they released expansions at a rapid pace and didnt' do a complete gear reset every expansion. Just when I used to think that I had used up a current expansions content a new one woudl be release (or even before I had used it up).

    WoW is a bit fortunate in that they have the BGs and arena to retain people between their ridiculous expansion cycle. But then again, because of the overly long expansion cycle their gear resets are more substantial.

    'Player maturity in AoC' by Streamweaver
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 14:06:34 CST
    Just commenting on your question about Mature content in AoC and weather that makes things better or worse as far as player base maturity.

    I've been playing AoC quiet a bit since launch and the most surprising thing about the effects of Mature content on the game is that it doesn't seem to have made a difference at all, or at least not the kind of difference folks expected.

    The blood and violence seems to attract a crowd interested in that so the PvP aspects are pumped up even on PvE servers. The nudity and such I think folks expected would bring in a bunch of kids doesn't seem to really have made a difference. Nobody I've met in the game seems really to care about this aspect and are not really phased by it. The only place I've really even seen it mentioned or played up is on blogs outside the game. I've never once seen some naked female character dancing for "tips". This is a regular occurance in WoW but I've not seen it once here.

    I've also not really seen people flirt with female avatars here on the level I"ve seen it happen in other games. I think the player base seems more cynical in this game about the sexual adult content and don't give into it, which is a good thing.

    Anyway, that's been my experience.

    'Well Kendricke...' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 15:42:50 CST
    You can go back to that comment thread (Dec. 17, 2007) on my blog and double check, but you wrote that if SOE didn't give your guild content to keep you interested people in your guild would start asking you about forming a branch in a different game AND that, based on past history, that SOE was unlikely to provide such content without a level cap increase. I might be accused of over stating the point, but I think it was quite reasonable to conclude from your own comments that no level cap increase would mean your guild looking elsewhere.

    'The "I agree too" problem' by Heartless
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 16:04:23 CST
    I have to admit that the show does need a dissenting opinion, as this show really had a lot of the "I agree too problem". Also, some fact checking was in order.

    For example, in the project management portion I was screaming inside for someone to just come out and say "THE DESIGN CHANGED! Project management is the workhorse of the design, and if design goals change, then the workhorse has to adjust. It is ignorant for anyone in project management to believe that the project must stick to what was originally planned. Also, GOOD project managers make the tough calls when something doesn't work out with the design. Its a marriage, not "do it or else" slavery." I have more to say on that subject and I'll blog it up later.

    Another example: the scope control comments by Karen are completely off-base. It has been said a thousand times over that the new two capital city system will offer MORE content than if they had stuck with the original six city plan. That is not "cutting content to meet the deadline."

    I also found it very insulting that the Mark Jacobs bonus pay tripe was included, yet the panel dared to say that Mythic shouldn't charge for an expansion that might include the "cut cities". It is a very hypocritical view to have.

    I am not trying to bash the show or panel members, as I like to listen to every show, but this show really stunk of a lack of research. I actually had to wonder how much each person knew about the WAR changes prior to the conversation occurring.

    So, off my soap box. I'm still a listener and if you need someone to stir the pot, look me up -_o

    'Expansion' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 16:44:28 CST
    I've thought about returning to EQ Live, especially with the Legacy campaign. But I retired my character shortly after planes of power, and the thought of starting new (or returning) and trying to catch up is overwhelming. Not only do I have to catch up in level to socialize, but then there's AA points, story and lore, equipment and tradeskills.

    I understand expanding to keep active players happy, but unless I'm missing something, new players or even some returning players can easily be left in the dust. And there was a time when EQ expansions came in such rapid succession, that I almost thought they had rabbits that could reproduce expansion content at SOE.

    So while expansions are good, pacing is also important imho.

    'Oh and I should add...' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 16:51:36 CST
    Forgot to mention that there are plenty of people who have vocalized how awesome it would be to have a EQ server with just the original trilogy, with all the hardships like Bookintheface, corpse runs, trading at banks or in the EC tunnel, etc. These are people who believe that there's more to an MMO than just expanding level and content.

    'Heartless indeed...' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 17:00:42 CST
    Ah, Heartless, you wear your heart on your sleeve indeed. You do carry the Mythic banner quite prominently on your blog.

    First you want dissenting opinions, but heaven help us if we bring up a rumor, if only to ask if it is true, about senior staff at Mythic being on a bonus plan? I hadn't even hear that before it ended up as a comment on my blog and certainly did not count it more than base level conspiracy theory. But you sound like you want a fanboi echo singing the praises of WAR and daming those who stray from the path of enlightenment. Insulted indeed!

    As for 1+1 > 6 on the city front, you can say it will be more content until you're blue in the face, but you haven't got a leg to stand on. It is spin. They did it for a reason, even the right reason, which I agreed with on the show, but it is still a cut. They can spin it however they like, but you'll not convince me that they cutting four cities is somehow going to net out to more content over all in the same time frame. You'll get better content in the two remaining cities, and that is probably the right choice at this stage, but don't try to blow smoke up my ass.

    Finally, when somebody, anybody, promises ME a certain level of features or content in anything, then reneges on that promise, I get annoyed. If they decide they can then charge me additional money for what they have already promised, then I get mad. And then I go tell my wife and she gets me a refund, because she is good at that.

    The problem Mythic has isn't project management, it is expectation management, which goes back to certain strong personalities. They beat the drum and built up these expectations. They are the ones making promises they cannot keep. Again, as I said on the show, compare to how Blizzard doles out information. It is frustrating, but it keeps them honest. (Or more honest.)

    So project management is about making tough calls, but life is a lot easier when you don't have to make those calls in front of the customer. I hesitate to count the number of sales reps I have wanted to beat with the own Gucci loafers because they have promised a customer some feature that was discussed then rejected in a confidential meeting, but at least I could blame a single idiot. When it is the company strategy, it sullies the whole brand and you end up on the path to where I imagine you see SOE, based on your past comments.

    Anyway, if Karen or Darren want to set up a WAR grudge match show, I'll be there, and maybe I'll even do some research. And if they can get Kendricke at the same time, it can be a "hang Wilhelm out to dry" show!

    'MMOs a special case' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 17:47:43 CST
    It's rare for new products to give anything more than a "teaser" before launch and the reason for this is that most change their offering before they launch. Every mobile phone has a different spec to when it was originally conceived. Every tin of peaches is less tasty than its buyer was hoping.

    We are in a privileged position to be part of this design curve of the MMO product and the reason we are in is because it seems to be so bloody difficult for game to meet expectation. Hence extensive betas which simply do not occur in anything like the same scale anywhere else.

    Whilst Wilhelm you might be right that Mythic have overpromised what they have not done is "short-changed" you. Nor have you paid for anything which they have not delivered. If you are disappointed by the loss of four starting sities, then disappointed you shall be. The idea that you should lambast Mythic before you've seen their product, thereby taking advatange of the privileged position they put you in seems wrong to me. The same thing happened with Conan and still people are whingeing about it, even though it seems to have almost 1m players. Frankly, I think these supposed blogger gurus are afraid to admit that they were wrong. The fact is they aren't really insightful gurus at all, simply the same as everyone else with equivalently valid opinions and just as likely to be wrong as anyone else.

    There are also too many people who consider that "spin" is a bad thing. "Spin" is a good thing. It tells people the other side of a story, when the whingers (who are applying negative spin to satisfy their own egos) knock something in an unjustified way. What one must do is steer some kind of middle ground taking into consideration both "spins" and then we make our own decisions. Too many people simply ignore positive spin as "lies", when of course it is not lies, it is simply a different perspective.

    'Good post, Scytale.' by Kendricke
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 18:44:18 CST
    I wonder if Darren, Karen, of John's time in Everquest 2 is too much of a let down...considering that prior to launch, SOE promised everything from player owned ships to player caravans, artisans as their own adventuring classes to a well lit and yet insidious Freeport. What happened to player run theatre events that you could sell in-game tickets to? What about the Village of Marr? Entire zones were developed in the early parts of Everquest II's development cycle than developers talked about that never made it to release.

    Are our nightly jaunts somehow irrecovably tarnished because we can't visit the orc village of Busheldown? Somehow, I think not.

    'Scytale goes on and on...' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 18:47:54 CST
    I don't know how to make it any simpler for you Scytale. They promised six, now they say it will be two. That part is fine. If they decide to charge me extra for the additional four, then I will be annoyed. I am neither disappointed nor do I feel short changed, those are your incorrect inferences.

    Scytale, who produces nothing but enjoys sitting in judgment, perhaps it is you who is afraid to admit you are wrong. I notice how you built us up as gurus there, a position none of us has ever taken... in fact, a position I claim to be the opposite of, if you have ever read my blog... just so you can pillory us and rejoice at our supposed "fall." Attacking the messenger as opposed to the message is often the sign of a weak argument.

    As for spin... six cities was the plan, it was a good idea way back when. Now they cannot finish the six cities, which is fine and good, I understand that. But to then trot out logic that two will actually be superior to six and that is how it should have been... well, it stretches their credibility in my eyes. That is spin spun too far in my opinion.

    You say that the expectations for this game are high. Well, it is Mythic setting those expectations.

    I also disagree completely that the standard is to get only teasers. This industry is rife with over promise, with too much exposure into the design that leads to disappointment when cherished features get axed in the name of reality.

    Finally, I have to laugh at the idea that we have been "privileged" to be subject to Mythic's marketing plan. You seem like more of a cynic than that Scytale.

    'Just from a lore perspective...' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 18:52:33 CST
    As a table-top Warhammer player, I find it difficult to image a high elf going to Altdorf for capital city needs. There's a whole back story about high elves and dark elves, exile, and stolen lands that is completely non-existent without the high elf capital city. I'm surprised that Games Workshop is okay with this.

    And personally I wasn't a big fan of EQ2 only having 2 captial cities either. I'm a firm believer each race should have it's own culture, architecture, clothing, etc. And sure WAR will still have some of that, but taking away a capital city is huge. They can downplay and try to spin it positive, but it's still huge.

    Imagine what Lord of the Rings, a story rich in culture that defines fantasy, would be like if all the hobbits, elves, dwarves and humans just all assimilated into Gondor from the get-go. Nice.

    'Kendricke...' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 18:56:05 CST
    I am disappointed by that reply. I really thought you were bigger than that, that you enjoyed the cut and thrust of our exchanges. Instead, you put the boot in, doubling up on somebody elses ad hominem attack.

    What has become of our relationship?

    *bursts into tears and runs off*

    'Just from a lore perspective...' by Seritaph
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 18:59:49 CST
    As a table-top Warhammer player, I find it difficult to image a high elf going to Altdorf for capital city needs. There's a whole back story about high elves and dark elves, exile, and stolen lands that is completely non-existent without the high elf capital city. I'm surprised that Games Workshop is okay with this.

    And personally I wasn't a big fan of EQ2 only having 2 captial cities either. I'm a firm believer each race should have it's own culture, architecture, clothing, etc. And sure WAR will still have some of that, but taking away a capital city is huge. They can downplay and try to spin it positive, but it's still huge.

    Imagine what Lord of the Rings, a story rich in culture that defines fantasy, would be like if all the hobbits, elves, dwarves and humans just all assimilated into Gondor from the get-go. Nice.

    'Dear Angry People who know better' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 19:14:27 CST
    See show title.

    That is all.


    'Interesting' by Sente
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 19:29:50 CST
    This show got more interesting with reading the comments here - I must agree with Scytale, a bit more disagreeement and exposing different arguments makes better listening.

    Regarding the Mythic and Warhammer Online topic, I think WIlhelm may be right here in that they have not handled their expectation managment particularly well. They have only themselves to blame unless they have clearly stated from start what features may not make the release. I do not follow Warhammer Online, so I do not know what they have stated before in this matter.

    It is not excuse if other companies are doing or have done this; just a sign that it is a more general problem for game companies in that case.

    'AOC is Bleeding, even though I don't want it to.' by Orkomage
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 20:03:08 CST
    I love Age of Conan, but you'd really have to have the fanboy blinders on to not notice the severe amount of losses that's occuring. I really enjoyed my time while playing, and I didn't zoom up to the highest level with nothing to do, they quite simply have broken the game more and more with every patch. It's become less stable, more nerfed, and an overall dissapointment. I was quite giddy with the game at release. Such great potential /flush. =(

    'On the flip side' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-07-22 20:05:00 CST
    Thanks everyone for the comments.

    Mission accomplished for this show I think.

    'What is your mission?' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 07:28:43 CST stimulate debate? Do I get a thank you:)

    Just as a closer - commenting negatively, if you like "critiquing" some of the generally held arguments in the podcast, does not make me (or anyone else) a cynic, so I couldn't let that pass. A dissenter, perhaps.

    I have not read your blog, Wilhelm, but might well do that. A general comment on "guru bloggers" does not mean that every blogger claims to be a guru. Plenty do, though.

    Re- the issue of "privilege" - when given an opportunity to beta test a game, as I am sure many listeners have - we are given a privilege. We play a fun game for free and have an opportunity to influence its content. In my own mind I feel I influenced a lot of things in LOTRO, whether I did or not, and it was a privilege to have this opportunity. Whlst not exactly the same as my comments on Mythic (and many others who are giving us fun stuff to read about forthcoming MMOs - call it marketing, if you like), I find I enjoy being involved in an evolving project. Is it not biting the hand that feeds you, to complain in this way? At least that's my perspective.

    I don't like to be personal in comments, but I am often criticised for not having a podcast of my own. That day may come, perhaps when I have something unique to offer. Until then, I hope I am allowed to continue to make considered and (aiming to be) constructive comments on other podcasts, without giving anyone else a chance to "hit me back" by criticising my own podcast...

    'Attacks?' by Kendricke
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 08:53:26 CST

    If you'd like to show where I attacked you ad hominem, I'd immediately apologize. However, since I'm musing as to whether or not you'd feel the same situation about SOE as you seem to currently about Mythic, I think it's appropriate to call out names here...don't you? After all, I'm not looking for a general response from a general audience - I can do that easily enough in any venue.

    No, in this show and in these comments, you specify your feelings as to the "removal" of 4 cities from a game that, as near as I can tell, you've never logged in to once. How can you miss what was never there?

    This isn't a new thing. Blizzard was working on player housing early in World of Warcraft's alpha. SOE promised Guild Halls on their release box for Everquest II. McQuaid promised...well, pretty much the moon for Vanguard.

    The bottom line is that IF Mythic decides to release the cities at a later date and IF they choose to charge for that release, I'll bet you cash money right now that IF you're already/still playing Warhammer Online (itself quite the "if"), you'll line up alongside everyone else to buy the expansion.

    Declaring outrage about changes during a beta test (a closed beta, at that) is simply naive. My earlier questions illustrate this.

    After all, would you suddenly be upset if you found out that the Village of Marr or Busheldown were part of the next expansion? Will you stop playing the game if The Shadow Odyssey includes player owned ships?

    Somehow, I doubt it.

    'This and That' by Jaye
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 11:00:11 CST
    Lively discussion!

    I agree that I probably should have cited sources that shaped my views. Regarding AoC, it's hard to get official subscription tallies, but the recent Xfire numbers, as well as the data collected by Classy Gamer, while limited in scope and duration, both make me curious about server numbers across the board.

    Regarding Kendricke's comments about EQ2's cuts and whether it took away from our personal enjoyment, obviously it didn't directly. Indirectly though, you could argue that it definitely did affect everyone's enjoyment of the game early on. EQ2 is a great example of a game that had a rough launch and an amazing turn around. But what if the time spent on ill-fated features and content had been focused on tightening up the game sooner?

    What's notable about the Warhammer cuts is partially the scope, but partially the timing. Michael Zenke noticed the lack of completeness in those four cities over a month ago, when he wrote the Massively goes to War series. You'd have to assume that if he saw it, it had to have been on the minds of those at Mythic for a while. So it's valid to ask whether a scale back of this proportion, coming a just few months before launch, came at the right time.

    Having said all that, I'm not at all on the "epic fail" bandwagon for any of these games. (I'm a Vanguard fan, remember!) I do think it's valid to bring up the question about missed opportunity. With less overpromising, and tighter project management, I think that the games mentioned (AoC, EQ2, and Vanguard) could have taken and retained a greater share of the player market. Warhammer might prove differently, but the bar that's currently set by the fans is extremely high, and cemented firmly in place.

    'Who is feeding whom?' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 12:02:56 CST
    @Scytale - I actually rescind the part of my comment about "not producing anything." That was a distraction from the actual topic and unfair and I must admit I feel that other people who have said, "If you don't like our podcast, go make your own" have been off the mark as well.

    But I think we clearly view our relationship with software developers in a different light. I would never refer to Mythic, SOE, Blizzard, or any other developer as "the hand that feeds me." I am their customer... or their potential customer. I see expectation management as their job. But, during the day, I sit on their side of the table and deal with customers who can, on a bad day, make most complaints about MMO look quite minor.

    @Kendricke - As Karen said, we will never know the impact of the content that never made it into EQ2. But, of course, that completely missed my point. After all, I said that removing the four cities was the right plan. I said it on my blog, on the show, and here in this thread, so if you have missed it so far, please consider yourself reminded.

    So, back to the context of my objection, I have a lot of trouble picturing you pointing out how your fellow EQ2 players are naive if, to pull out a theoretical, SOE had taken the content they promised for Kunark, like epics, and rather than patching them in later, as they quite nicely did, making an expansion out of "the things we missed in Kunark" and charging for it. That would be the parallel scenario, in my view.

    And, just for future reference, if I end a comment with something like "bursting into tears," it usually means I have gone from my usual half serious mode into full on leg pulling.

    'Holy WAR, Batman!' by Akely
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 13:22:17 CST
    I'm trying to learn how the damn nuclear plant works for a couple of weeks and you all go off like this place is a bloody forum (hey Brent, this place needs a bloody forum ;-) ).

    I'll listen to the show as soon as I can, this seems interesting! :-D

    'They let us know' by Kendricke
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 13:27:48 CST

    John, I spent more than a year leading up to the release of Everquest II discussing Guild Halls as a primary goal of our guild. Even in beta, we were told that Guild Halls were being worked on. At the April 2006 Community Summit, I sat down at a table with three other guildmasters and a couple of developers as we were asked what we wanted to see in Guild Halls.

    I built my entire guild to be Qeynos only and kept them that way for over 2 years, John, because the initial news we'd received about Guild Halls indicated that they'd require huge amounts of city faction from one city or the other. It wasn't till just over a year ago that I FINALLY allowed evil classes to join the Legion ... when I'd finally, FINALLY started to give up on the idea of Guild Halls.

    Then, at FanFaire last year, they suddenly showed up concept art and discussed several ideas. I began to receive communications from developers asking for input again. The whole idea began to churn again.

    In two months, we'll FINALLY receive a feature that was promised to us in 2003. We'll FINALLY receive a feature that even now is still on the back of Everquest II boxes that I come across on store shelves. After 4 full expansions and 3 different adventuer packs - after 45 months of paid subscriptions - we'll FINALLY see a product that was promised to us at release as one of the original and primary selling points of the game.

    So what?

    I had every opportunity to vote with my feet over the last several years. I could have packed up and left years ago. I could have stopped playing at release the moment I realized what wasn't in the game anymore. Why didn't I? Because they let me know in advance. I wasn't tricked into buying the game before I realized I'd been bamboozled. The moment the situation changed, SOE said so.

    Let's face facts here. The developers first said one thing would happen at release. Then they turned around and informed us that another thing would happen at release. They didn't hide the fact that Guild Halls wouldn't be in the game at release. They were up front about it once they made that decision. Before I paid a dime in subscription fees or even collected the box at the store, my expectations were reset by SOE.

    They let us know.

    The same thing happened with epic weapons, John. They let us know. They let us know the epic weapons wouldn't be in right away with Kunark. Was I disappointed? Sure, I was. However, I still went out and bought Kunark because SOE told me that they'd bring the epics as free content later on. I was fine with that.

    Mythic's removed some classes and some cities, John. They told you this. The very fact that we're having this discussion at all isn't based on some leaked internal memo or the rantings of a disgruntled former employee. No, we have this information because the lead designer of the game came out publically and said "yeah, based on beta feedback, we yanked this, that, and the other."

    They let us know.

    Have they promised they'd put the content in later, John? Did they state they'd put it in for free when and if they do? I don't see either statement anywhere, though it's possible I missed it. Either way, the point right now is that you have the data you need to make an informed decision. You know what's been cut from the beta so far. If it's enough to make you decide not to play (I don't know - maybe you really wanted to play a Dwarf Hammerer), then that's your call. If it's not, then I'll see you at launch.

    Whether or not you make it to an expansion isn't going to affect my gameplay. However, claiming that you won't buy it if they don't include this, that, or the other...well, my offer of a wager still stands, John. :)

    'I'll be quoting Wellington soon...' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-23 21:19:38 CST
    And you've sat quietly and never complained a bit on the guild hall subject in EQ2? Quite admirable, keeping that bottled up for over four years. They should put you up for sainthood, or at least put you on an LoN card.

    Yes, when I get Warhammer, because I have already pre-ordered it, and if I love it, I will likely buy the expansion. That wasn't exactly the serious jump of logic that required 7 paragraphs of Kendricke history and the long, painful road to guild halls in EQ2.

    And, to redirect, I said that removing the cities was probably a good idea and just worried that having the two DPS classes removed would make two races unviable in a PVP game. I did not say that something horrible came to pass or take the grave and negative attitude that you seem to be ascribing to me.

    On the show I started to say I wouldn't buy an expansion if it consisted of content cut from the release, but cut myself off on, because it was silly. I stopped to mock myself at that point for saying it.

    But if such a thing comes to pass, and there is no indication that it will... another blogger actually brought it up, so it was a poke at that person really...

    Will I be annoyed? Yes. Will I bring it up again? You bet. Will I be alone? Unlikely.

    I'll probably be in good company.

    'I think I understand' by Oakstout
    Submitted on 2008-07-24 18:03:15 CST
    Ok, after reading all of the above postings, I have come to understand what Wilhelm is trying to say.

    If Mythic comes out with an expansion, and in that expansion only offers the consumer a game with 4 extra cities and 4 extra classes, he would be upset. I'm sure the smart thing on their part would be to offer more new content and spectacular mounts or items and then just throw in the missing stuff as a freebee. We could just be wrong, they might put it in as a free patch at some point. None the less, the point is, if they just gave us an expanion with just those missing items, people would be annoyed. There I think I got it right.

    Now, would this have been an issue if Mythic had decided to keep their trumpets silent and not reveal so much of their game so soon? Probably not. The issue at hand is that the media machine that Mythic decided to roll out months ago has now been jammed into reverse and is running over their own feet.

    Was the removal of said cities and classes a good thing, probably. Are we getting more, now that they are gone, no, but we maybe getting a more polished (yes I said it Darren) game, unlike the recent Funcom problem. I really applaud Mythic for saying, we don't like the way this is going and we want to stop it before it gets any further, so the gaming experience won't be horrible for you the player. Now should they have done this earlier, yes. But sometimes when your close to a project your objectivity gets out of focus. I'm sure they were heart broken to pull that stuff.

    The real issue at hand is the inability for Game makers to keep their mouths shut and to not start up the press machine. We blogger's, yes I am one but not a guru like Darren or Jaye, (lol) feed this machine, and we keep it going to the point where any scrap of information we get is plastered over tons of blogs in minutes or even seconds in some cases. Game companies, live for this kind of press, the problem is, like now, it will bite them in the arse.

    'Oh and please argue more' by Oakstout
    Submitted on 2008-07-24 18:07:26 CST
    I too would like to see a show similar to the way these postings have turned out. The fierceness at which Kendricke and Wilhelm go after one another would make a great show!


    'Naw' by Orkomage
    Submitted on 2008-07-24 20:13:46 CST
    Naw, if he podcasts like he posts, they'll have to buy extra bandwith to support the length of the show. =)

    'Won't force it' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-07-25 10:51:56 CST
    I've had this come up before regarding having more drama in the show...and I'll say again what I said then: If there is any drama or arguements in the show, it'll come naturally and will not be forced.

    I would much rather stay honest to the flow of each show than to be dishonest just so a few listeners can get thier ya-yas that day. Plenty MMO podcasts out there that do you're more than welcome to listen to those if you're not getting your drama quota for the day. This is SUWT, not Hardball.

    btw Oakstout...I think the phrase you're looking for is "wordy", not "fierce".

    'no drama' by Sente
    Submitted on 2008-07-25 14:24:41 CST
    Drama and different viewpoints are different things, I can certainly do without the former.

    'The Calm' by Oakstout
    Submitted on 2008-07-25 16:42:05 CST
    yes, wordy does work better.

    I agree spontaneity is the key to any great podcast, especially one like SUWT and I wouldn't want to trade that for anything.

    Also, while I have a moment, because I have not been here in a while, and I have been a loyal listener since the start of the show back when Cuppy was your original co-host, I want to say how awesome the addition of Karen is to the show. Although, she is an EQ2 fan, she does have an open opinion about other games and isn't close minded or just another "Fan-Girl", which your last female co host, number 2, seemed to be. Those were not my favorite episodes I must say.

    Wilhelm and Scott were equally great, being a fan of both their blogs its nice to hear their input on other topics by other bloggers, which is the meat for the show.

    As always, I look forward to the next cast, and keep up the great work.

    Oh as a last question, what is the music you play at the end of the show, I'm sure its been asked, but I've not caught the answer yet.

    'it WAS going to be short and sweet...was' by Dathmar
    Submitted on 2008-07-25 20:17:46 CST
    Good show as always...I honestly enjoy these types of podcast regardless if all participants agree with each other or not.
    I'll be honest I really don't like some of the criticism I see in the above comments about the show - I feel if anyone NOT directly involved in the show wants to make things better to suit their own personal tastes - then try contacting the producer of the show directly via email or in some cases Skype VM.
    I'll also be honest in saying that some people commenting hide behind saying they are giving constructive criticism but its clear its not constructive and its obvious its there to create ill feeling.
    True constructive criticism is something that should NOT hurt the feelings of the person you are giving it to and should also help them improve what they are trying to do.
    I would personally love to see all the comments here used to discuss the topics of the show (which most people have) rather than the format of the show, quality of the guests or the amount of research by each guest / host.

    Sorry to not really talk about the topics in the show myself (going against my own principles but I really felt strongly about this one)

    Oh BTW - there is no way that 6 cities down to 2 cities is more or better than before.
    It just means that the 2 cities will probably nearer complete come release - that's all.
    I've worked on too many projects to be fooled anymore.

    'Drama! Oh Noes!' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2008-07-25 22:40:56 CST
    Jumping in on what Darren says, keep in mind the show has always been a group of bloggers talking about the current topics in the blogs that week. SUWT is not doing The News, that's Brent's exclusive territory. SUWT is also not Hardball or Hannity and Colmes (jeez I can't even believe you guys made me mention a Fox "news" show) where the hosts are polarized and therefore guaranteed to get contrast.

    Karen and Darren (hehe) could easily say "ya know, this guy at such-n-such blog has an opposing view on Subject X than our other guest next week, let's get him on the show for opposing viewpoints." However, if Subject X was not a topic in the blogs over the past week or two, it likely would have no excuse to be on the show. You're never guaranteed to get opposing viewpoints with that format.

    @Oak: thanks for the compliment, man!

    'Jumpin' in I promise for the last time' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-26 02:38:15 CST
    Dathmar - I simply don't agree. Many comments I make are levelled at all podcatss, not just this one. My experience too is that people listen more if feedback is given and others agree. If a lone email, then most simply receive it equally defensively and conveniently ignore it.

    Talyn - choice of guests is a quality issue. Are my guests from the same page? Am I likely to be giving a variety of perspectives on the topics? How incisive and insightful were they last time? How do they sound on the podcast? Do I remember or did I keep notes as to how good they were last time? Every TV producer thinks about most of these aspects for every discussion programme they put out. Podcasts haven't yet reached this kind of quality threshold - it's still "mates getting together" - but imho they should - at least if they take themselves seriously. This "thread" has shown all sorts of dissenting voices and frankly has been more interesting to read than most "discussion" podcasts have been to listen to, so it can't be hard to get different perspectives. I can say for a fact that I'm not beating off requests from podcast hosts for differing opinions (not an invitation, though!).

    Choice of host is also important, as most people with strong views also have an ability to "argue their case", tempering their views with opposing perspectives (or facts) and that makes what they have to say more valid. Again use TV as the model - interviewers are usually very experienced journalists.

    '' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 09:52:38 CST
    Scytale, it always comes down to the same thing with you...not good enough. Fine, time for you to move on from the community if you think we're not there yet and come back later.

    Sorry we don't live up to your standards, but I'm not changing things at this time. I'm quite happy with the show right now.


    "Again use TV as the model - interviewers are usually very experienced journalists."

    I'm surprised someone as intelligent as you are would say something so obviously incorrect.

    TV interviewers are hardly good journalists. They're usually picked for their looks and that's about it. They are pugilists at best...hacks at worse.

    Again...this is SUWT, not Crossfire.

    'Put up, or Shut up, we're talking' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 10:48:53 CST
    He's always welcome to put his critique, criticism and opinions to the test and show everyone how it should be done...

    Hell, I figure he'd be able to moderate Scytales FightCast. The first rule of FightCast is...

    He could even book John and Kendricke for the first show's fight. May as well start off with a bang!

    'Hopefully some of it will rub off' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 11:39:42 CST
    Defend all you like. Huff and puff, twist what I say, try to pick holes in feedback which is suggesting ways for you to improve - it makes no difference to me how receptive you are. Karen asked me to check out the podcast to see if I felt it has improved, since 20+ shows ago, when I last listened,which I have done. It's improved a bit, but still has many of the flaws from before (see above).

    Like I said to BeauT, it's one of the better podcasts, that Brent allows to broadcast, but nothing is beyond some criticism/recommendation. Gracious acceptance of the validity of varied opinion does you far more credit.

    'Ugh hard to post a silly thing in this title bar while trying to be serious.' by Beauturkey
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 13:29:47 CST
    The thing you do not understand Scy, is that you are that guy at the party that, while his opinions are as "valid" as the next guy's, you don't know when to quit.

    See, you come on and tell us our shows are full of fluff and essentially, suck. That's fine. Yet you keep listening.

    Also, we are not hiding behind an anonymous name on a thread somewhere: most of us have websites, complete with pictures, email addresses, blogs, and since many of us have been doing this a while, easily obtainable personal information thanks to Google. Try it: go google "Beau Turkey." I tried googling "Scytale2" (and I'm trying to remember what happened to Scytale1) and surprisingly enough, I came up with much of nothing. I found a name connected to someone that is 42, from Birmingham, and likes non-profit groups, it seems. Also, I found a blog with the last post dated sometime in Feb.
    Who knows your story? I, for one, don't. But you know ours.

    You are THAT guy. That's fine. But while you constantly pass out your criticisms, (while still listening, which is mind-boggling in itself) you give almost no praise. So that means you enjoy NOTHING about our shows.

    So leave. You don't like the food in the joint, leave it. But you just keep standing up, complaining to the staff. No one cares what a random guy on the internet says.

    See, constructive criticism is just fine. You made your point. We are unprofessional and boring. Also, we need to do more to satisfy YOU.

    I am just going to speak for myself here, not for anyone on this site and especially not for Brent: Guys like you LOVE the internet. Where else can you keep yapping about what is wrong with this and what is wrong with that, and not get thrown out on your butt?

    Enjoy it. Know that I, for one, do not care at all what others think of me. I am honest, and I try to be myself. I cannot help it if someone thinks I am full of air or need to improve. OF COURSE I do. I did not go to school for this and do not get paid. (Except for the awesome donations, which I thank the community and Brent for more than they know.) So, as someone that is speaking for myself, let me say this: you are the guy that, if you never posted here again, no one would miss.

    And no, that is not some kind of knock down at him, personally. It is simply a fact about how I feel about someone I do not know in any way, shape, or form.


    'Sunday, Bloody Sunday' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 13:55:09 CST
    Dayum Beau! =D

    Scy, sit back, breathe, and pay attention to what we've been saying, and how Beau very succinctly put it. Yes, some are getting defensive but you've put them in that position. Let's say someone at your job every day comes at you with nothing but negativity and verbal jabs, would you not be defensive in your posture and attitude towards that person as well? You claim to give "constructive criticism" and while you do give your own suggestions for "improvement" every criticism and even the suggestions themselves are given in a very negative context. How about balancing it with positive critique as well?

    Gracious acceptance of the validity of your opinion? I believe it's obvious by now we all accept that everyone's opinion here is equally valid. But gracious? Go read again your very first comment, and you tell me with a straight face how ANY of that was in any way, shape or form "gracious." Be respectful (or gracious, however you prefer) in what you give, and you will receive the same in return. As it stands, you've been handed the same treatment you doled out.

    In the end, this is Karen's err... Darren's (ha!) show, and his vision behind it all. If it's not the vision you care to listen to, that's perfectly fine. We're not all required to like and enjoy the same thing; that's why we have our own unique opinions and perspectives.

    'Apologies for the upset' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 17:18:52 CST
    If you are desperate to publish my email across the web as punishment for disagreeing with you, I'm sure you can find it out, but I'm afraid this smacks of personal vendetta. Picture me as some demon critic from Hades, if you must, but you would be misrepresenting me.

    When a person speaks out on behalf of listenership it can be a rocky road, but I am not about to back down on what are constructive and to be honest obvious comments. A simple "thank you for your opinion, we will consider what you have to say" would suffice. Instead it turns into outright war, that anyone had the gall to criticise what you'd spent time on. Just because you're not paid for it, does not obviate any need for constructive comments.

    I don't write often, only when I have something worthwhile to say and before this tirade from you, Beau, I felt you were mature enough to take on board useful comments. There's still chance for you to redeem yourself with an apology. I certainly apologise for clearly upsetting you, which was certainly not my intention and still isn't, despite your comments.

    As a final comment, criticism is not based on "likes/dislikes". Whether I like something or not does not come into a criticism. As I have said to Beau (which he refuses to accept) I like VOV, I no longer play the game, but I listen every so often to the podcast. If a critic writes about a West End show, he or she writes about whether he or she feels the show has "quality", not whether he or she enjoys it. That's a separate analysis. It may correspond, but may not.

    In the "land of free speech", one would expect a little more understanding of what this means, or is it a question of free speech, as long as it is not too free. Yes this is a snipe, albeit not a personal one. I would not want people "warned off" making comments on podcasts - it's a surefire way of podcasts staying at the same quality for the foreseeable future, when we want to see more professionalism, not less.

    '..but...' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 18:02:40 CST
    " would not want people "warned off" making comments on podcasts - it's a surefire way of podcasts staying at the same quality for the foreseeable future, when we want to see more professionalism, not less."

    ...ummm....who said we were professionals? We're hobbyists....perhaps you forget that. Hobbyists who spend weekends at the computer away from wife, kids, family to produce and edit this stuff for your enjoyment. So, although I appreciate your comments, I find the tone to be off-putting to be honest. Example, I had an email this week about "breathing in the mic" ( wsa me...crap!!)...but the way he put it made it constructive. Your comments, for whatever reason, just are not constructive.

    You see Scy, this is where you go wrong in your argument regarding the quality of SUWT (audio, quests, topics, etc)...I'm not measuring by your yardstick.

    Tell you what, you work on your lack of tack, and I'll continue to make SUWT a better show.

    'Darth Darren' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 19:27:03 CST
    I'm so glad that was YOU! hehe I was listening to the show and kept thinking "Crap! I never heard any of that during the recording, so I hope it wasn't me."

    But don't even try the "I am your father" line; I ain't buyin' it. =D

    'About the whole criticism and "nature of what a podcast is" thing' by LealaTurkey
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 19:37:50 CST
    Yeah sure we all want to hear what people think of what we are doing with our podcasts. And of course is not going to always be positive. But being outright condescending is just lame. No other way to put it. We are all adults and don't need to be talked down to by our listeners. (I'm speaking directly to this situation among others that I have personally experienced.) And if you think for a second the whole "if you don't like it don't listen" and "then do it better yourself" points are wrong you don't GET what we are doing here. That is the foundation of the independent podcast. We don't owe anyone anything and THAT'S whats makes for a great show. I know for sure that my husband with VOV and Darren, Karen and everyone with SUWT are putting an awful lot of work into what they do and I think its great. As much as all the party poopers wanna nitpick the show to death, it doesn't matter to me. I love it ten fold because I respect you guys and what you are trying to do here.

    -Leala Turkey

    'Woo Hoo! It's too hot to go anywhere and the doggies are TIRED! Might as well keep ona' postin'!' by Beauturkey
    Submitted on 2008-07-27 19:52:57 CST
    (I don't feel like editing, sorry, too much to do.)

    1) "Publishing" your email: PLEASSSSEEE show me where I published your email. Here's what I did, you can follow along there at home.
    a) Go to
    b) Put into the little bar thing..that's it..right there..ok, put in "beau turkey" hit "google search"
    c) You can now tell people that you weren't just trying to check to see if the person that you were having this like, uber-dramatic text argument with on Virginworlds was someone that ACTUALLY knew what the heck he was talking about, but that you were actually "publishing emails." Later, you can go to and "publish emails" by putting in "cute puppies" or my fav: "Hair Highlights."

    2) Redeeming myself to you, Scytale, random guy on the internet: I apologize to you, Sctytale2 (his email is, I published it earlier) for telling you to shove it when you said my show was "fluff" and "dumbed down." I am sorry that I cannot take such criticism like a man. For I am not a man, but a 1/8th Cherokee in Dallas, Texas...married for years to a wonderful gaming lady, living with two huge dogs and two cute cats, and a fan-boy making a fan-cast for the very best video game he has ever played.
    I also apologize, to you, Scytale2 (his email address has been recently published in "Beau Turkey On Scytale: Emails and Such. (2008) ) for not allowing you to come directly INTO my recording studio (not just my home PC, it's an actual studio) to push buttons and to tell me, word for word, how something would satisfy you.

    3) Me getting upset: Dude, this is nothing. I am a wired, skinny, always on 135 pound internet commenting maniac. This ain't upset, this is just me being me.

    4) You being a villain: You aren't a villain, don't flatter yourself. Like, Dr. Doom was a villain. Hitler was down right nasty. You are just an internet guy. DOn't worry man, we all have been that guy. I don't take all your comments personally because I know that's this is just what you do.

    You owe me a beer, now.


    'Maybe over some pastrami at Sardi's' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-28 14:58:26 CST
    Darren, Beau, Karen, and others. We need to huddle up and discuss what has transpired here. Internet famous professional critic for the preservation of the public good, Scytale, has compared these podcasts to West End shows. (And his own criticism to the reviewers of such.)

    This means the big time, the monetization of these humble efforts. And I, Wilhelm Bialystock, know just what we need to do. I'll start lining up some investors while you start working on a new show... Hrmm, maybe a Brad McQuaid revival? Springtime or something?

    By the way, Scytale, there is a new internet tax on people who demonstrate they do not understand what free speech is by bringing it up on forums where somebody else is footing the bill. Please head on over to the IRS web site and pay the fine. For a first offense it is really quite reasonable, but if you wait too long, those penalties add up!

    'No, but seriously..' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-07-28 15:38:37 CST
    Being serious for a moment, which is often difficult for me, here is what I think you should do Scytale, as I do not see comments here being a long term win for anybody.

    I think you should start your own blog called something along the lines of "MMO Podcast Reviews." You should review episodes to which you listen, critique them, point out good shows, have great big annoying graphics for bad ones, highlight good guests, point out shows that provide useful information as well as shows that are just fun to listen to, chart trends in quality, and once in a while have a retrospective about past shows that are worth a second listen.

    That, in my mind, would be both a viable and useful public service, even if you hate everything and end up giving out reviews ala Mr. Cranky. A site that does that would be a regular read for me. (And hey, Brent used to critique podcasts back in the day, didn't he?)

    I promise that, should you take up such a venture, I will mention and link to it in posts as often as is decent and make it a permanent link on my site, for whatever that is worth. (Five redirects on a good day, but it is the thought that counts!)

    You have something to say. I just feels like it goes to waste here.

    'Review blog' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2008-07-28 16:57:34 CST
    Interesting idea, Wilhelm. Not one for me, but maybe someone will be interested/dedicated enough to pick it up. Interesting too that you "monetised" the word "free". I'd never viewed it that way.

    Apology accepted, Beau.

    'Ok ok ok. ' by Beauturkey
    Submitted on 2008-07-28 18:13:12 CST
    I'm sorry, seriously.

    Jiminy. You'd think you were talking to the official SOE playa' of da' YEAR!!!

    That's right. WOOOTT!

    Anyway, all good.


    '...and we're full circle' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2008-07-28 19:32:02 CST
    ...I had to laugh at John's suggestion because, if I recall correctly, that's what Brent's site use to be about waaay back in teh day.

    'Now that I've listened...' by Akely
    Submitted on 2008-08-03 08:24:26 CST
    Was that so much to argue about? 8-S

    Thats some good blog recommendation! Nice site!

    'podcast reviews' by Sente
    Submitted on 2008-08-03 11:39:50 CST
    ".I had to laugh at John's suggestion because, if I recall correctly, that's what Brent's site use to be about waaay back in teh day"

    Reading comments from "the prognosticator" about various podcasts on the EQ2 daily web site was what caused me to take a peek at; with continued peeks since then ;)