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Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up. We're Talking #24
Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:00:00 GMT [download/play]



  • Introductions
  • Listener mail/What we're playing
  • We Delay it
  • Owning our Stuff
  • Providing Depth
  • Blog of the Week

    Hosts:
  • Darren - Commonsensegamer.com
  • Karen - Journey's with Jaye
  • Lisa - Finding Fiero
  • Julie - Julie Whitefeather Blog

    Topics:
  • Pushing Back
  • Do We Own it?
  • Virtual Property
  • We Don't Want Rights
  • You Have no Rights
  • Casual Worl

    Blog of the Week:
  • The Greenskin

  • Login to post a comment
    Previous Episodes
    Episode #77 - Duration: 2925 - Released: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:16:01 +0000
    Episode #76 - Duration: 7730 - Released: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:34:01 +0000
    Episode #75 - Duration: 4659 - Released: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:57:48 +0000
    Episode #74 - Duration: 4071 - Released: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:22:45 +0000
    Episode #73 - Duration: 4943 - Released: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:41:07 +0000
    Episode #72 - Duration: 4707 - Released: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:28:52 +0000
    Episode #71 - Duration: 3820 - Released: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:39:28 +0000
    Episode #70 - Duration: 4623 - Released: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:51:32 +0000
    Episode #69 - Duration: 4837 - Released: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:07:07 +0000
    Episode #68 - Duration: 01:13:32 - Released: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:34:00 GMT
    Episode #67 - Duration: 01:12:09 - Released: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:24:00 GMT
    Episode #66 - Duration: 00:59:30 - Released: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:26:00 GMT
    Episode #65 - Duration: 01:23:43 - Released: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:03:00 GMT
    Episode #64 - Duration: - Released: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:51:00 GMT
    Episode #63 - Duration: 01:13:26 - Released: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:52:00 GMT
    Episode #62 - Duration: 01:12:04 - Released: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:28:00 GMT
    Episode #61 - Duration: 01:26:12 - Released: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:26:00 GMT
    Episode #60 - Duration: 01:57:27 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:34:00 GMT
    Episode #59 - Duration: 01:37:24 - Released: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:48:00 GMT
    Episode #58 - Duration: 01:21:01 - Released: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:45:00 GMT
    Episode #57 - Duration: 01:47:46 - Released: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:01:00 GMT
    Episode #56.5 - Duration: 00:02:21 - Released: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:26:00 GMT
    Episode #56 - Duration: 01:01:53 - Released: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:41:00 GMT
    Episode #55 - Duration: 01:16:27 - Released: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:00 GMT
    Episode #54 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:51:00 GMT
    Episode #53 - Duration: 01:31:47 - Released: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:12:00 GMT
    Episode #52.5 - Duration: 00:04:12 - Released: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:43:00 GMT
    Episode #52 - Duration: 01:04:24 - Released: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:35:00 GMT
    Episode #51 - Duration: 01:17:30 - Released: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:49:00 GMT
    Episode #50 - Duration: 01:35:33 - Released: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:15:00 GMT
    Episode #49 - Duration: 01:03:31 - Released: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:27:00 GMT
    Episode #48 - Duration: 01:13:44 - Released: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:25:00 GMT
    Episode #47 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:21:00 GMT
    Episode #46 - Duration: 01:27:11 - Released: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:05:00 GMT
    Episode #45 - Duration: 01:04:36 - Released: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:01:00 GMT
    Episode #44 - Duration: 00:56:47 - Released: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:15:00 GMT
    Episode #43.1 - Duration: 00:18:59 - Released: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:11:00 GMT
    Episode #43 - Duration: 00:59:34 - Released: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:24:00 GMT
    Episode #42 - Duration: 01:11:28 - Released: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:14:00 GMT
    Episode #41 - Duration: 01:06:59 - Released: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:55:00 GMT
    Episode #40.5 - Duration: 00:02:50 - Released: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:48:00 GMT
    Episode #40 - Duration: 01:16:52 - Released: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:45:00 GMT
    Episode #39 - Duration: 01:08:43 - Released: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:01:00 GMT
    Episode #38 - Duration: 00:37:38 - Released: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:00 GMT
    Episode #37 - Duration: - Released: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:00 GMT
    Episode #36 - Duration: 01:10:59 - Released: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:03:00 GMT
    Episode #35 - Duration: 00:49:08 - Released: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:54:00 GMT
    Episode #34 - Duration: 01:08:50 - Released: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:38:00 GMT
    Episode #33 - Duration: 00:58:54 - Released: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:42:00 GMT
    Episode #32 - Duration: 01:03:27 - Released: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:01:00 GMT
    Episode #31 - Duration: 01:05:03 - Released: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:13:00 GMT
    Episode #30 - Duration: 00:59:20 - Released: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:44:00 GMT
    Episode #29 - Duration: 00:28:31 - Released: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:48:00 GMT
    Episode #28 - Duration: 01:09:13 - Released: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:31:00 GMT
    Episode #27 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:42:00 GMT
    Episode #26 - Duration: 01:06:47 - Released: Mon, 19 May 2008 03:10:00 GMT
    Episode #25 - Duration: 01:01:48 - Released: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:46:00 GMT
    Episode #24 - Duration: 00:57:48 - Released: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:00:00 GMT
    Episode #23 - Duration: 00:47:54 - Released: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:05:00 GMT
    Episode #22 - Duration: 01:12:16 - Released: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:54:00 GMT
    Episode #21 - Duration: 01:56:55 - Released: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 05:01:00 GMT
    Episode #20 - Duration: 00:49:01 - Released: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:08:00 GMT
    Episode #19 - Duration: 01:01:05 - Released: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:08:00 GMT
    Episode #18 - Duration: 01:08:01 - Released: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:35:00 GMT
    Episode #17 - Duration: 01:36:26 - Released: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:07:00 GMT
    Episode #16 - Duration: 01:06:39 - Released: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:58:00 GMT
    Episode #15 - Duration: 01:33:23 - Released: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:24:00 GMT
    Episode #14 - Duration: 01:24:15 - Released: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:47:00 GMT
    Episode #13 - Duration: 01:22:18 - Released: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:30:00 GMT
    Episode #12 - Duration: 01:17:38 - Released: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:55:00 GMT
    Episode #11 - Duration: 01:17:01 - Released: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:30:00 GMT
    Episode #10 - Duration: 01:00:37 - Released: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 03:33:00 GMT
    Episode #9 - Duration: 01:12:13 - Released: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:47:00 GMT
    Episode #8 - Duration: 01:24:35 - Released: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:44:00 GMT
    Episode #7 - Duration: 01:11:21 - Released: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:05:00 GMT
    Episode #6 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:13:00 GMT
    Episode #5 - Duration: 00:58:57 - Released: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:50:00 GMT
    Episode #4 - Duration: 01:13:04 - Released: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:52:00 GMT
    Episode #3 - Duration: 01:10:25 - Released: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:20:00 GMT
    Episode #2 - Duration: 01:09:48 - Released: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:20:00 GMT
    Episode #1 - Duration: 01:08:21 - Released: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:12:00 GMT

    Episode 24 Discussion Thread

    'the money is real enough' by hallower
    Submitted on 2008-04-14 02:38:26 CST
    The boundary between imaginary and real won't be drawn by developers or gamers. It will be drawn by politicians. And they won't wait for gamers or developers to invite them into the discussion.

    As I said at Cameron's blog, something is being traded. What that something is exactly can be reasonably debated; but, whatever it is, it’s being traded for real money and that means it’s only a matter of time before the government demands its share.

    Should anything be owned by players? No. But when the government decides to tax virtual trade, then ownership of virtual goods will become legitimized and inescapable.

    And then the real debate will begin. ;)



    'casual --> hardcore?' by hallower
    Submitted on 2008-04-14 02:45:40 CST
    Players don't start out toward casual and move toward hardcore. Many gamers are fanatics from the first day they play the game. Many players with high-level characters still play leisurely and with moderation.

    Certainly, players with high-level characters have more invested in the game. That makes it harder for them to quit, but it doesn't mean their playstyle or depth of appreciation for the game has changed.

    There is an illusion that players change as they progress, but it's only illusion. In an MMO, the game's rules and goals change between level brackets. So players are forced to adapt their playstyles to accomodate, if they wish to keep playing. Those changes don't represent player interests or degree of immersion.

    Incidentally, raiding is a different kind of gameplay than early level content. For now, it's all but required by MMOs at the endgame. But raids at the high end are a fad. We started out that way, and we're slowly moving toward designs in which raid-type content exists early on and endgame events don't require so much organization. We're headed toward more variety in games.



    'Best Podcast Yet' by Mezzum
    Submitted on 2008-04-14 09:42:02 CST
    These 3 women, in this short podcast, emparted a lot of wisdom. I am very impressed.


    'Mind Expanding Podcast!' by MChavez
    Submitted on 2008-04-14 12:12:24 CST
    Wow. What a great show. It is good to hear these kinds of discussions. It gives me hope that the MMO genre will move away from a design structure that essentially pits players against each other in the form we call casual vs. hardcore.

    I'm not sure what to do about owning virtual goods. For a typical MMO, I really don't see the point. While I cringe at the thought of server wipes, in the end, the real thing to hold on to are the memories we develop from playing the games. I could care less about what equipment my character owned. I often delete characters who are max level or just give my character away to whatever guild I belong to when I'm done with the game. But, what I take away with me as real are the memories and experiences I had while playing.

    On the other hand, with virtual worlds like Second Life, the concept of owning pixels is a major platform of the game. People base part or all of their income on the objects they create and sell within that world. People who make real world items like paintings and music also use a "virtual" version of their work hoping that people will go out and buy their "real" world counterparts. Shouldn't these people be taxed for the income they make in Second Life?

    Anyway, awesome show. I was given a very good education today and I very much appreciate it.



    'Hm.. ' by Luper
    Submitted on 2008-04-14 16:17:20 CST
    I'd just like to say that I really enjoy listening to your podcast, as well as reading many of your blogs.

    It is quite frightening when people begin to take the virtual world into a matter of real life issues, or when the virtual world effects one's real life. Games are meant for entertainment. It's a fantasy world that one can enjoy. It's not meant to be a job!

    If players were given rights to the items they owned in a virtual world, then players would be opening their arms to gold farmers on a daily basis. Money farming would be "accepted." I know many gamers who hate getting gold farmer spammed, and even if you aren't a gamer, but keep up with many of the gaming forums, you can see that the opinion on gold farming is pretty strong.

    As far as "hardcore" vs "casual" players, I feel that there can be many opinions on the subject whether it be game play time, or the players mentality. It is a matter of what "you" as a person feels "hardcore" or "casual" player is defined.

    There's more.. hehe



    'Continuation.. ' by Luper
    Submitted on 2008-04-14 16:17:47 CST
    Some descriptions that were given about "hardcore" players.. I feel are just bad experiences, or perhaps put a negative connotation towards "hardcore" players. I know ya'll probably didn't mean it that way, but some of the comments seemed to be interpreted that way. In my opinion, it depends on what type of Organization one is involved in how the players act or react. I have guilded with some really awesome people who I would define as "hardcore" players. They are an adult crew and none of us is immature about how loot is distributed or how we go about raiding. We just enjoy the game and try to have fun.

    I think that games that need a healer, tank, and dps to succeed in group or raid content are great! I like a challenge. I'd rather play a game that makes me get to know the other people in the virtual world in order to accomplish something, then a game that allows me to solo everything in game with the right gear. To me, the people I play with make the game. I enjoy meeting new guild mates and learning new encounters. Even if I died a million times trying to figure out the strategy! I think that figuring out the strategy is half the fun! I feel that if a guild has to actually set up a good raid format in order to do an encounter, that that encounter must be pretty well made! To me, that shows that the designers took time in order to make the content challenging and fun. I, personallly, hope there are many more games that

    ~Luper
    (Voyages of Vanguard Co-host)



    'My Cup of Malt!' by Akely
    Submitted on 2008-04-15 11:56:36 CST
    A great show. I especially enjoyed many of Julies ramblings. Awesome stuff. not that anyone else did a bad job, but the Raving Nun stands out!

    As for the topics I must say I have different opinions on much of the stuff, but the opinions presented where well stated and clearly has some merit to them. Thought provoking and interesting crew! More!



    'Access to Developers' by dalith
    Submitted on 2008-04-18 18:06:10 CST
    I believe there are three main reason gamers expect access to the developers. First, is because gamers see developers as the referees. In every sport there is at least one person who enforces a set of rules. If you disagree with a call or ruling, you can immediately petition/argue your point. In PNP RPG, the DM develops, manages, and enforces a set of rules and the DM is almost always across the table from you. Instant access.

    Secondly, from personal experience, every positive interaction between me and a GM in an MMORPG has been the resolution of a social or a community issue. On the flip side, every interaction with a GM because of a game issue has been a horrible experience. The line has always been that there is nothing they can do and our only option is to redo the quest. If GMs can't or won't assist us, who can? Who is next up the food chain? Who can actually make a change in the game for us?

    Lastly, economics. If you pay once for a product, you can assume that the product or service is "as is". Now in every MMORPG I have played, there is a monthly fee to continue playing. If a company expects customers to continue paying for a product/service, the company should expect the customers will want advances in that product/service.