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Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up! We're Talking #22
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:54:00 GMT [download/play]



  • Introductions
  • Listener mail/What we're playing
  • What to Unmake
  • Flames Drama
  • The $500 Million Question
  • Blog of the Week

    Hosts:
  • Darren - Commonsensegamer.com
  • John - The Ancient Gaming Noob
  • Tipa - WestKarana
  • Paul - The Grouchy Gamer

    Topics:
  • What to Unmake
  • Paul Bernett - What to Unmake
  • Unmake That Game
  • EQ2Flames vs SOE
  • $500 Dollar Question

    Blog of the Week:
  • Nuyan's Hangout

  • Login to post a comment
    Previous Episodes
    Episode #77 - Duration: 2925 - Released: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:16:01 +0000
    Episode #76 - Duration: 7730 - Released: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:34:01 +0000
    Episode #75 - Duration: 4659 - Released: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:57:48 +0000
    Episode #74 - Duration: 4071 - Released: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:22:45 +0000
    Episode #73 - Duration: 4943 - Released: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:41:07 +0000
    Episode #72 - Duration: 4707 - Released: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:28:52 +0000
    Episode #71 - Duration: 3820 - Released: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:39:28 +0000
    Episode #70 - Duration: 4623 - Released: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 15:51:32 +0000
    Episode #69 - Duration: 4837 - Released: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:07:07 +0000
    Episode #68 - Duration: 01:13:32 - Released: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:34:00 GMT
    Episode #67 - Duration: 01:12:09 - Released: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:24:00 GMT
    Episode #66 - Duration: 00:59:30 - Released: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:26:00 GMT
    Episode #65 - Duration: 01:23:43 - Released: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:03:00 GMT
    Episode #64 - Duration: - Released: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:51:00 GMT
    Episode #63 - Duration: 01:13:26 - Released: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:52:00 GMT
    Episode #62 - Duration: 01:12:04 - Released: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:28:00 GMT
    Episode #61 - Duration: 01:26:12 - Released: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:26:00 GMT
    Episode #60 - Duration: 01:57:27 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:34:00 GMT
    Episode #59 - Duration: 01:37:24 - Released: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:48:00 GMT
    Episode #58 - Duration: 01:21:01 - Released: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:45:00 GMT
    Episode #57 - Duration: 01:47:46 - Released: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:01:00 GMT
    Episode #56.5 - Duration: 00:02:21 - Released: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:26:00 GMT
    Episode #56 - Duration: 01:01:53 - Released: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:41:00 GMT
    Episode #55 - Duration: 01:16:27 - Released: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:00 GMT
    Episode #54 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:51:00 GMT
    Episode #53 - Duration: 01:31:47 - Released: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:12:00 GMT
    Episode #52.5 - Duration: 00:04:12 - Released: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 19:43:00 GMT
    Episode #52 - Duration: 01:04:24 - Released: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:35:00 GMT
    Episode #51 - Duration: 01:17:30 - Released: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:49:00 GMT
    Episode #50 - Duration: 01:35:33 - Released: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:15:00 GMT
    Episode #49 - Duration: 01:03:31 - Released: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:27:00 GMT
    Episode #48 - Duration: 01:13:44 - Released: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:25:00 GMT
    Episode #47 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:21:00 GMT
    Episode #46 - Duration: 01:27:11 - Released: Mon, 4 May 2009 02:05:00 GMT
    Episode #45 - Duration: 01:04:36 - Released: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:01:00 GMT
    Episode #44 - Duration: 00:56:47 - Released: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:15:00 GMT
    Episode #43.1 - Duration: 00:18:59 - Released: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:11:00 GMT
    Episode #43 - Duration: 00:59:34 - Released: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:24:00 GMT
    Episode #42 - Duration: 01:11:28 - Released: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:14:00 GMT
    Episode #41 - Duration: 01:06:59 - Released: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 01:55:00 GMT
    Episode #40.5 - Duration: 00:02:50 - Released: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:48:00 GMT
    Episode #40 - Duration: 01:16:52 - Released: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:45:00 GMT
    Episode #39 - Duration: 01:08:43 - Released: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:01:00 GMT
    Episode #38 - Duration: 00:37:38 - Released: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:00 GMT
    Episode #37 - Duration: - Released: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:00 GMT
    Episode #36 - Duration: 01:10:59 - Released: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:03:00 GMT
    Episode #35 - Duration: 00:49:08 - Released: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:54:00 GMT
    Episode #34 - Duration: 01:08:50 - Released: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:38:00 GMT
    Episode #33 - Duration: 00:58:54 - Released: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:42:00 GMT
    Episode #32 - Duration: 01:03:27 - Released: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:01:00 GMT
    Episode #31 - Duration: 01:05:03 - Released: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 20:13:00 GMT
    Episode #30 - Duration: 00:59:20 - Released: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:44:00 GMT
    Episode #29 - Duration: 00:28:31 - Released: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:48:00 GMT
    Episode #28 - Duration: 01:09:13 - Released: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:31:00 GMT
    Episode #27 - Duration: 01:14:25 - Released: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 02:42:00 GMT
    Episode #26 - Duration: 01:06:47 - Released: Mon, 19 May 2008 03:10:00 GMT
    Episode #25 - Duration: 01:01:48 - Released: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 01:46:00 GMT
    Episode #24 - Duration: 00:57:48 - Released: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:00:00 GMT
    Episode #23 - Duration: 00:47:54 - Released: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:05:00 GMT
    Episode #22 - Duration: 01:12:16 - Released: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:54:00 GMT
    Episode #21 - Duration: 01:56:55 - Released: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 05:01:00 GMT
    Episode #20 - Duration: 00:49:01 - Released: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:08:00 GMT
    Episode #19 - Duration: 01:01:05 - Released: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:08:00 GMT
    Episode #18 - Duration: 01:08:01 - Released: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 02:35:00 GMT
    Episode #17 - Duration: 01:36:26 - Released: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 04:07:00 GMT
    Episode #16 - Duration: 01:06:39 - Released: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:58:00 GMT
    Episode #15 - Duration: 01:33:23 - Released: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:24:00 GMT
    Episode #14 - Duration: 01:24:15 - Released: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:47:00 GMT
    Episode #13 - Duration: 01:22:18 - Released: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:30:00 GMT
    Episode #12 - Duration: 01:17:38 - Released: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:55:00 GMT
    Episode #11 - Duration: 01:17:01 - Released: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:30:00 GMT
    Episode #10 - Duration: 01:00:37 - Released: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 03:33:00 GMT
    Episode #9 - Duration: 01:12:13 - Released: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:47:00 GMT
    Episode #8 - Duration: 01:24:35 - Released: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:44:00 GMT
    Episode #7 - Duration: 01:11:21 - Released: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:05:00 GMT
    Episode #6 - Duration: 01:10:07 - Released: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 01:13:00 GMT
    Episode #5 - Duration: 00:58:57 - Released: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:50:00 GMT
    Episode #4 - Duration: 01:13:04 - Released: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 03:52:00 GMT
    Episode #3 - Duration: 01:10:25 - Released: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:20:00 GMT
    Episode #2 - Duration: 01:09:48 - Released: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:20:00 GMT
    Episode #1 - Duration: 01:08:21 - Released: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:12:00 GMT

    Episode 22 Discussion Thread

    'My Favorite 3 Bloggers on One Podcast FTW' by James
    Submitted on 2008-03-17 04:55:08 CST
    Too tipsy from pre-St. Paddy's Day idiocy, so my only comment regarding this week's show is "YES."

    = )



    'Hey wait!' by Wilhelm2451
    Submitted on 2008-03-17 10:50:58 CST
    There were four bloggers on the podcast... hrmm... I guess one of us is not a favorite. Well, that angst will keep us all in line!


    'Insanity...' by Celestian
    Submitted on 2008-03-17 16:06:55 CST
    I can't believe you'd think that if you went back and removed D&D that the gaming today would be better. That is one of the most ridiculous and flawed statements I've ever heard.

    D&D didn't make everything about stats. The DM could be flexible and bend the rules change the game and make the story for the group fun. The computer games are the ones that broke it down to just stats, NOT D&D.

    There are so many things about your statements that are misconstrued I won't even attempt to go over. Suffice it to say if we didn't have D&D our games would be decades behind what we have today as far as game play.

    The reason there aren't more story driven games is because people don't like them. I dunno about you but I prefer games that I make my own path, not some pre-written story for me to ride on the rails and watch.

    I can't believe anyone would make such a silly statement if only to try and get a hot topic or something going.



    'LOL John' by James
    Submitted on 2008-03-18 05:52:56 CST
    Curse you and your mathematical Jedi mind tricks. I wasn't counting Darren since he's the host. = )

    Besides, Canadians already top too many of my favorite lists:

    - Favorite Bacon (Canadian FTW)
    - Favorite Hockey Team (Toronto)
    - Favorite Comedy Troop (Kids in the Hall)
    - Favorite Star Trek Cast Member (William Shatner)
    - Favorite Vapid Baywatch Bombshell (Pam Anderson)
    - Favorite North American Province and/or State (Manitoba)
    - Favorite Television Show That Informed My Adolescence (Degrassi Junior High)
    - Favorite Hobbit Rock Prog-rock song ("Rivendell" by Rush)

    Need I go on?



    'Burn, with a J' by Akely
    Submitted on 2008-03-18 07:26:30 CST
    Undo D&D???:
    Witch! BURN HER!

    Gary must be rolling in his grave. Probably D20's but whatever...
    Points are valid, but I must say that the STRENGTH of table-top RPG's is that the group can decide to play the game how they like it. That's why a good group is so so so important. And experience.

    The Sims:
    Probably the best sandbox game I've ever played. But I must admit that many of the expansion packs was silly and unnecessary. The best stuff The Sims did was getting my wife to play games. Now she is a hardcore EQ2 player. Thanks Will Wright, I love you!

    Flames debacle:
    I noticed you all deftly stayed out the "buttering up tactics" angle... The SOE tactics are working, I see. ;-)

    Paul hits the nail on the head with his final statement about putting different messages in different forums/channels. Doing that makes the difference between helping out and nagging. And with that in mind one might ask if LFG was "fired" because of eq2flames.com or if he was fired because he did not pull his own weight. It would be great to hear other Influencers take on this, but I bet they are asked not to talk about this.



    'Re: Burn with a J' by animagnum
    Submitted on 2008-03-18 10:52:25 CST
    I agree that customization is a strength of D&D. This is also known as imagination, which was increasingly left out as tabletop games made their way into computer game form. D&D is certainly important, and means so much to so many people, but consider what MMOs or computer gaming might be like without it. It is impossible to say whether or not we'd be better off or even behind where we are today if D&D was "undone". It is not simply a sliding scale. We might be somewhere /different/. I thought that it was certainly one of the more interesting subjects for 'unmaking,' as it would obviously spark more of a debate.


    'Forgot something.' by Akely
    Submitted on 2008-03-18 11:00:44 CST
    Should have thrown a smilie in there re the D&D debate. I'm perfectly fine with the opinion.

    The perception that D&D is stat heave much derives from the non-natural formulas and many tables (well... many for the time). In a game where everything is percentage based the feeling is a little different although the same math is involved. But basically it is how you decide to play the game.

    Personally, if one wants a non-stat heavy game that has a very deep and well made setting to play in I recommend RuneQuest in the Glorantha setting.

    /soapbox



    'D&D = Virtual Worlds' by rpgobjects
    Submitted on 2008-03-18 15:27:17 CST
    I also think it's a bit absurd to unmake D&D. Games like D&D, Chainmail and others in the early days of TSR were the first attempts to provide game logic to create virtual worlds. Without D&D, you don't have virtual worlds. It was the spark that grew into all virtual gaming worlds (electronic or tabletop).


    'Billion $ WoW Killer' by Mashidin
    Submitted on 2008-03-19 08:19:32 CST
    Great show again guys! I especially enjoyed the discusion on the Activion CEO's comments about any game company's compatition with WoW. In my opinion this idea and the thoughts on smaller innovative companies cannot be talked about enough. Tobold brought this very subject up a week ago on his blog and I was shocked that it got so few comments. Gamers should definitely continue to address this in podcasts, blogs, and forums so that hopefully some young game company will stand up and say "We cannot leave the entertainment of enthusiasts completely up to big budget conglomerates" and strive to make a game that rivals WoW (not just promise they will). Perhaps I'm naive but I cannot allow myself to believe that all that a developer in the current MMO environment can hope to accomplish is bring a niche game to the table that will only appeal to a comparatively small number of people. There's something out there and I predict that it will come in the middle of WoW success and not as it is loses subs due to age and moving on to another game. Will it cost a billions dollars? Will we recognize it when it does appear? More importantly (sadly), will a publisher recognize it? That, I could even not begin to guess. I just got to hope.
    Thanks again for the insiteful round tables Darren and definitely bring Tipa back, she's full of piss and vinegar for sure.



    'Great show!' by howl
    Submitted on 2008-03-19 15:39:36 CST
    Hey guys, fun and thought provoking show as usual. What was that first song that was played around 14:30? Really liked it! Thanks and keep up the great work!


    'D&D and The Sims' by hallower
    Submitted on 2008-03-19 20:08:47 CST
    The Sims is actually a better realization of D&D as a computer game than most MMOs, because the heart of gameplay is player imagination.

    I posted my thoughts over at Darren's site.



    'Madden does have Pirate Ships BTW' by BiggDawg98
    Submitted on 2008-03-21 10:23:45 CST
    Sorry to correct John but the Madden series already has a pirate ship! The Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the game (and real life) have a giant pirate ship at one end of the field behind the end zone. The pirate ship even fires it's cannons when they score a TD. So sorry John but your "Madden 2009 - Madden and Pirates" was already done a few years back. Great show and fun topic. Thanks!


    'D&D Spreadsheet' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2008-03-21 10:33:41 CST
    I have no idea how anyone else played their D&D games way back when, but I was only a player for a very short time before I became exclusively a GM (DM but whatever, multiple games...) I took full advantage of the "these rules are only a guideline" aspect of things, especially when I quickly learned a few of my players were Rules Lawyers and walking Monster Encyclopedias, so to keep things interesting I changed nearly everything so their book information was no longer as useful.

    I had a deep and involved story to take them through, and while I allowed them to pretty much do as they wish, they enjoyed the story enough to mostly keep to it (granted, their actions caused me to re-write and re-think some of it) that I only had to forcefully put the rails back on a handful of times and only for short periods. I don't even think they noticed.




    'jordan's books' by citadelli
    Submitted on 2008-03-26 01:52:39 CST
    if you dig the Jordan books, try out George RR Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series; smokes Jordan's books by tenfold, incredible and brutal, redefined fantasy literature for me on an epic level. Thanks for the great podcast!