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Shut Up. We're Talking.
Host: Darren and Karen
Darren and Karen present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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Shut Up! We're Talking #2
Wed, 6 Jun 2007 05:20:00 GMT [download/play]

Show Notes:
  • Introductions
  • What we're playing
  • Bring out the Axes
  • Did TBC kill WoW?
  • When the Virtual and Real World Collide
  • Quality in Games
  • Blog of the Week
  • Listener mail.

  • A Pretty Pink Axe to Grind
  • Female Gamer? - Who cares? by Cuppycake
  • Warriors to the forum
  • Cuppy, AKA the anti-feminist
  • I Reject the Big Boys
  • NewBreed on How TBC killed WoW
  • Why TBC Killed End-Game WoW for Me and a Plea to Blizzard
  • The Missing Ingredient
  • Speaking on Ingredients
  • Follow Up Thoughtâ

    Darren and Cuppy present this commentary podcast covering recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community.

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    Episode 2 Discussion Thread

    'To long? WTF?' by Akely
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 03:36:45 CST
    How can a show be too long? Sometimes I need to do other things or need a break. I then use the (obviously) little known pause button. :rolleyes:

    'TBC too much Raidcontent?' by Wallaby
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 05:55:29 CST
    Hi Cuppy, hi Daren!
    While listening to your discussion about Burning Crusade, I got the impression that you think the expansion contained mostly raidcontent. I disagree with that and here are some numbers to back it up:
    - 16 new 5-player Instances
    - more than 1000 new quests
    - 4 new low level areas
    - hundreds of new crafting recipies (some of which are actually usable for once)
    - 1 new Battleground and the Arenasystem for PvP

    I believe that people tend to concentrate too much on the raidstuff. The reason for this (imo) is that WoW is an itemdriven game and the best items drop in the raidinstances. But the other content is still there and some of it is a lot of fun.

    I really enjoy your show! Keep up the great work.

    'Yeah' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 07:58:21 CST
    You may be right Wallaby...I'm still bouncing this one in my head.

    Thanks for the comments on show's really appreciated.


    'Self-indulgent?' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 10:41:29 CST
    I'm not a fan of this podcast yet. Both characters seem to be echoes of each other, giggle together and there's virtually no discussion at all (Cuppy even pointed this out in the podcast)...
    If we're going to use this format, then the discussion needs to be balanced. Otherwise it just becomes a talking blog and there's plenty of these about...
    I'm ok with the concept of discussing the various blogs around and both voices are very good, but it's a bit lightweight, needs a bit more innovation and some controversial/stimulating/profound/inventive views. At the moment it's more about regurgitating other people's blogs and taking potshots at people/games which can't shoot back, to massage the egos of the podcasters.
    I'm not sure how this can be achieved, but you guys can do it for sure, from what I've seen of previous postings etc. so good luck!

    Lastly, I hate the first track, but I really like the way that the music is blended into the podcast, so congrats here.

    'Right' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 11:02:53 CST
    Thanks for the comment Scytale.

    Yeah, we need more "drama" in the podcast and that's what we hope the guest host will bring. Our guest this week couldn't make it, so we didn't have that.

    However, I do think this is a good start regardless if you think our motive is to massage our egos or not, which of course, it is not.


    'Hmmm' by Akely
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 13:14:01 CST
    I'm a 'fan' (even though that makes me sound like a screaming teenage girl) of the Podcast think scytale2 has a point. I can see his/her points. And I hope, like darrenl points out that the guests will add some depth (rather depth than drama, OK?) to the show.

    I nominate scytale2 as a guest!

    In other news: this browser I'm using in newly installed Ubuntu operating system has a spell checker. Pwew! Needed that! :-D

    'i hate titles.' by Cuppycake
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 13:30:52 CST
    The last thing that *I* personally want is to sound self-indulgent. I feel that we probably ramble on too much on particular subjects. But, I definitely agree with you that its too much of my boring opinion on things. Unfortunately, we only really have the subjects that are being blogged on to talk about. Hopefully once we've been doing this longer it will be more comfortable and our content will improve. And yes, having guests will be really helpful.

    'Seems fine to me' by DamianoV
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 14:06:46 CST
    The stated purpose of the blogcast is to "[cover] recent topics found within the MMORPG Blogging and Podcasting community". The hosts present the information and comments of the blogs, as well as adding their own personal views.

    I'm not sure what more would be expected, to be honest. A devil's advocate, always taking the contrary view... frankly, those can get annoying pretty quick. Of course, I am more of a "go-along-and-get-along" type of personality to begin with...

    I do understand what Scytale is saying... I guess I'm just at a loss as to how anyone would achieve it. Perhaps the guest will be the key to making that happen.

    (On a separate note, I'd be willing to volunteer as a guest, if ever needed, btw.)

    'Re: Why bloggers blog...' by Jaye
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 15:05:30 CST
    Just listened to your two podcasts, and enjoyed the discussions. Lots of interesting points.

    In response to your question about why people blog about gaming, I started blogging a little over a year ago, and the main reason was to be able to have a place to preserve my gaming experiences in EQ2. I was a big EQ player for several years, and was kicking myself because our old guild forums were wiped from the big ezboard hack, and I had also lost tons of screenshots over the years. I regretted the fact that I was already forgetting so many memorable times in Everquest, and didn't want that to happen in future games.

    I still write with that as my main motivation, although I recently have become more interested in the larger world of gaming commentary in the wake of the dramatic Vanguard tumble.

    I'm still devoting my blog to my gaming experiences in Vanguard, and I'm still enjoying the game a lot so I don't see that changing any time soon. Overall, the memories and screenshots are what's most important to me when I blog.

    Again, nice show.

    Jaye Wizziefingers (My blog!) (My guild!)

    'Any chance...' by Heartless
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 15:40:19 CST
    Any chance in the show notes you can put the time-stamp that each topic starts at?

    For example....

    -We talk about WoW ( 12:23 )

    'Great episode' by Talyn
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 16:13:25 CST
    You guys are still learning, and things are improving noticeably. I think your concept is a great counterpart to Brent's news-only show. I have a couple of the blogs you discuss in my own list, but it's still nice to hear an actual discussion than having to go read and digest one author's opinion, then another's, and so on.

    TBC and WoW -- well, let's just say TBC was the final straw for me and was the impetus for me leaving the game. I'd already grown weary of the end-game grind at 60, be it for gold, reputation, or gear in dungeon/raid grinds. Yes, I absolutely consider WoW-style raids to be grinding. I was also in TBC closed beta up til launch day and once I got over the whole shiny "oooh, new zones and a couple new mobs" effect, it was painfully obvious that after two years of waiting, TBC brought nothing new to the table, 10 more levels of the exact same quests we'd been doing from 1-60 for the questing crowd, and a bazillion more reputations to grind in more ridiculous Naxx-esque attunement chains that the majority of players will never complete, much less actually see the content.

    Now, I've been told I was hardcore in WoW. Aside from beta in TBC during the day (if I had time on my days off) I'd switch to "WoW Live" to raid in the evenings, not to mention the time grinding to get gold to pay my repair bills and consumables for the next raid. There were also times (again if I had the spare time available) where I could spend an entire day off in-game. Did spending that amount of time make me hardcore? I certainly didn't think so. A good portion of it may have been running laps in Ironforge while chatting with friends. Or exploring for "off the map" areas. Or figuring out exactly where to jump to make my way into Hyjal. Even when raiding, I never considered myself hardcore; I could certainly point to others whom I considered far more hardcore than myself. I did go so far as to join a hardcore raiding guild once, and it didn't last long. I already have a busy, stressful job and I'm away from home most of the month. I don't want to play a game that makes me feel it's a second job, and equally as stressful. Maybe that's the true difference: casual players, no matter how much time they put in-game or what they do with that time, be it chatting, questing, or raiding, ae in it for the fun of it. The hardcores seem to be in it for something else, or at least their definition of fun is drastically different than my own.

    'iTunes?' by sifo
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 16:48:59 CST
    Any ETA on when you will be up on iTunes?

    'Discussion without opposition' by Wallaby
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 16:50:14 CST
    What makes a discussion interesting for me, are the different experiences and points of view of the participants. That doesn't mean that you need to have opposing opinions on the subject though.
    Your playstiles and personalities are pretty different I think and because of that I believe you will provide us with a lot of fun and interesting discussions without digging for stuff you can disagree about.
    I also interpreted your shot at the ancient gaming noob as friendly banter between bloggers. Since you already had a discussion in your blogs with him about this subject, the argument that you are taking shots that can' be answered is not that valid to me. Also I am sure he could place a comment here, if he thought that to be neccessary.

    'iTunes Info' by darrenl
    Submitted on 2007-06-06 18:20:30 CST
    Sifo...and all.

    We are in iTunes right now. Just do a search in the Games and Hobbies podcasts with the key word "virginworlds" and you'll find us and other members of the collective.


    'Fanboi' by CDHWaldo
    Submitted on 2007-06-07 05:04:32 CST
    I love the show. You two play off of each other so well. I'm not a big blog guy, I barely read the blogs of my best friends, let alone all the random gaming ones that are out there. So having you guys to listen to, while you talk about stuff happening in the blogosphere is good for me.

    It helps you both have great voices.

    'Player-killing in online games.' by Nosferum
    Submitted on 2007-06-07 12:11:03 CST
    ---Player-killing is an integral part of online games, as it has generally been used as simply a form of competition. Yes, UO had p-k'ing and looting. Originally, player corpses were completely open for anyone to loot (with a minor, temporary draw-back). When Asheron's Call came out, they had a form of player looting, as well as a degree of PvP (though it wasn't integral to the design). Shortly before AC went live, player looting was removed. If I recall, not long after that UO took measures to greatly reduce both character looting and player killing. It was pretty much around that 1999-2000 era that, as MMOGs took in a wider audience, aggressive PvP acts reduced greatly.

    ---Shock from an outside cultural source, such as the UN or news media, provides no real information. If I recall, it was Dark Age of Camelot that brought PvP back (in a controlled manner). It also brought it back in a manner that pretty much eliminated in-group hostility, using the "realm" idea to facilitate, instead, out-group hostility. History has taught us that out-group hostility is pretty much always accepted. =)

    'Great podcast and my thoughts' by pvthudson
    Submitted on 2007-06-07 16:29:11 CST
    I posted what I thought about this whole WoW and easy MMO trend in general over on my new blog (, but I want to say thanks for speaking the truth about TBC expansion and wow in general. There seems to be a serious thing in the MMO community that you cant talk crap about WoW without instantly getting attacked by the people that follow Blizzard like sheep, but its nice to see someone speak up about what they really think about TBC

    'Getting Better all the time!' by Oakstout
    Submitted on 2007-06-07 23:29:00 CST
    I have to say that sound is better, no beating drum in the background lol.

    I think the shows content is great. A guest blogger that has an opposing view on a subject that Cuppy or Darren don't agree with would be great, but it has to be intellegent, not just a shouting match of disagreement, which I'm sure will never be the case. But for the most part, the show is holding to what it is, it reports the current topics that people are blogging about in the gaming world, specificly MMO's.

    Its even caused me to start my own blog. I got tired of commenting on everyone elses so I thought I would give it a try. lol

    Keep up the good work.

    'RE: pvthudson' by scytale2
    Submitted on 2007-06-08 05:41:41 CST
    I have to say that I find that there are blinkers on both sides here. as you say there are WoW fanboys, who hate the criticisms and there are bigots around who hate to applaud its success.

    Generally there is a middle ground on everything, where one has to accept and recognise opposing views for what they are. TBC is a massive product with bucketloads of new content. It is almost bigger than the original game. Bitter comments where it doesn't meet the need of a particular individual seem to me to be rather selfish, when maybe the product wasn't targeted (exclusively) at them. Imho TBC has extended the life of the game for all players, although some more than others.

    Having said this I would certainly like to see more original functionality - along the lines of the gem socketing that they produced. This is the area which lets down most of the existing games, as new functionality causes so much impact on every other element. Knowing this, one would have thought new games, such as LOTRO would have built in vast functionality at the start, or at least developed a very flexible system. The deeds/traits system may well be this, so we will have to wait and see.

    'Why bloggers blog' by CowNoseThe50PoundCat
    Submitted on 2007-06-08 18:49:00 CST
    Gosh I blog for EXACTLY the same reasons why Jaye does. XD Oh well, we might have the same reasons to blog but at least they are different. ^^

    'Hmm... cant find any contact info.' by CowNoseThe50PoundCat
    Submitted on 2007-06-08 19:10:56 CST
    Er, sorry for eheh "double commenting!" No way to edit or delete comments. XD But I couldn't find any contact info to send you guys an email.

    Well I just wanted to ask if I could be on your show. :) I would love to be a guest on a podcast, and it would be my first. ^^ Anyways you can take a look at my blog The 50 Pound Cat's MMO Adventures by clicking on the little arrow next to my name.

    Like you said in your podcast I'm a small blog thats only been around for a few months so I fit that bill perfectly. ^^

    'Great show' by Hauntshade
    Submitted on 2007-06-09 08:43:02 CST
    Great show guys, keep it coming :)

    Btw: glad to see it pop up on iTunes, makes it a lot easier to keep track of my podcasts on my ipod :)

    'TBC' by Nezrak
    Submitted on 2007-06-10 23:54:40 CST
    TBC: I don't think i'm a sheep =( I

    'Gah' by Nezrak
    Submitted on 2007-06-11 00:04:11 CST
    It always does that... snif snif

    What I tried to write:

    TBC didn't kill the end-game for me. It's more accessible to start raiding for new players ( small groups of friends ). My time to manage the guild was cut in half, now that I only need to manage 30 to 50 people to get the 10 or 25 to raid.

    End-game is end-game... it's a grind to get uber loot so you can brag about it and disintegrate new players. OR it's a way to have a challenge for the players who like the mechanic of the game, but since the game can be soloed, never had a hard time playing the content.

    Note: You can kill players in Eve, and loot their corpse (ship wreck). It's a good reason why Eve is a successful game, the PvP is awesome, and the game is totally oriented that way.

    Keep up the good work !!! I better like to hear your voices while traveling to work than read everything at home.

    A lot of love to the podcast format and the podcasters !!!

    'TBC killed WOW for me' by Brad
    Submitted on 2007-06-12 07:38:03 CST
    I have been enjoying the podcast, and glad you are part of the collective.

    TBC killed WOW for me. It just seemed more of the same old grind, more things to be a money sink, more rep grinding.. pretty much everything I hated about the game was rolled into an expansion. WOW just seems to have become this huge bloated game, where the goal is to keep people grinding and putting large amounts of time in for miniscule rewards.

    'Love the podcast!' by brenlo
    Submitted on 2007-06-12 13:53:35 CST
    Good stuff! Keep it up!

    On the point of Casual Gamers, I think that one of the biggest commuity issues we have in MMO communities, is that rather than enjoy the experience, too many folks worry about what others have, or can do. Yes, casual gamers pay the same as hardcore players (although for the sake of this discussion I think the labels of Raiders vs. Non-Raiders is more appropriate) however they pay for the entertainment experience. The rest is commensurate with the amount of time and effort they want to put into the game.
    Enjoy the experience, worry less about who has what, and you may find yourself having more fun. =)