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No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

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No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 8
Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:14:00 GMT [download/play]

No prisoners, no mercy show 8: Spamalot

1.) Iâm asâkinda upsetâas hell and not going to take it any more
2.) The Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and Order Tanks
3,) Ques and Server
4.) Laugh your ass off
5.) Tip sheet

A special thanks to servitor at for allowing us to use âbut reporting habits that make game developers cry.â If you havenât checked out Mark Jacobs blog at what are you waiting for? Go read it now! Thatâs an order - Weâre nuns and we have rulers.

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Episode 8 Discussion Thread

'Order tanks' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-10-02 15:57:17 CST
You two were way off base on the order tanks.
Both the IB ans SM are good tanks and they do good dps.
The problem is that there aren't enough of them and order is usually short on heals too making them seem not a tough as the desto tanks.

'Could be' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-02 16:24:31 CST
Well Gnova, could be and one thing is for sure, on the Phoenix throne server there certainly not enough of them on the order side. Take a look at the latest posting up at west karana on the subject:

Apparently mine wasn't the only Ironbreaker that bit the dust alot. This could indeed be due to a lack of healers, although one of my guild members noted that during the preview weekend most of the players seem to be rune priests. But as I mentioned, the role of a tank is to take damage but as you also may surmise, I despise characteres being assigned to a specific "role", and am anxious to see new additions to the old archetype as we have seen with the Disciple of Khaine.

On the other hand, having recently gone over to the "dark side" and "rolled up" a goblin shaman, wednesday on the badlands server I had an ironbreaker, a sword master and an arch mage all pounding on me and together they couldn't take me down. So it appears that at least some character classes traditionally thought of as being "squishies" arent really all that squishy.

What prompted my going over to the greenskin side was two things: I just love the way Mythic did the pve and having had a nearly impossible time of killing goblin shaman one on one it seemed they are VERY durable.

I have also, one on one, been able to take down a dwarven ironbreaker with my goblin shaman. So either the shaman is over powered (which it seems destruction is constantly accused of) or the iron breaker is under powered, or both.

But about submitting an MP3 file to in rebutal. It would be nice to have your in put on the show.


'Tanks for the enemies' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-10-02 18:44:33 CST
I can understand your frustration with the toughness of Orcs, but I think I side more with keeping them tough, and not because I play one because I have yet to pick up the game (which I will get around to soon). There are two reasons I don't want Orcs nerfed, or order tanks bolstered. The first is that Orcs having incredible toughness and melee power is just simply part of the I.P. If you've ever faced an Orc battalion in the tabletop game, you know what I mean. I'm not saying Dwarven Iron Breakers and Highelf Swordmasters shouldn't be tough, but they shouldn't be like Orcs as they have their own nuances that make them special. Which leads to my second reason and that is, why does everything have to be fair and equal all the time? I think it's this kind of diversity that makes the game interesting, and makes people use other forms of strategy and tactics other than the vanilla answer of pitting one vanilla tank against an equally powered vanilla tank. As an example, in good ol' EQ (the original) back in the day I played an Enchanter. In many ways I was at a huge disadvantage in that I couldn't solo like a druid or necro, had a lousy pet and couldn't do damage like a mage or a wizard, and I definitely couldn't do any decent melee damage. What made the Enchanter worth playing was the stuff I WAS good it. I could AoE mezz a group of mobs and make them stop dead in their tracks. I could charm just about any creature or person and make it do my biding. I could disguise myself to look like any race or elemental being and go places other people could never go. I had buffs that could bolster my friends, and debuffs that could cripple my enemies. With all my abilities I could easily turn the tide of battle with out doing a drop of direct damage. How cool is that?

So the Orcs are tough, good for them. Maybe it's just a matter of finding the Achilles heel.

'Sticking close to the IP - or not?' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-02 19:30:37 CST
In fact I had my own greensking orcs, choppas, goblins, snotlings...the works. Yes indeed, you are quit orcs being "as tough as a mack truck" is indeed part of the IP. What this brings to mind, however, is just how close does one stick to the IP as the game develops. For example, when a magic using class in Lotro in the person of the Rune Keeper class there was more than a few miffed people. In the end one of the devs explained it nicely on the Lotro Eurpose site (we will discuss this briefly on the next show).

So how close does one stick to the IP? Is it important or not?

Lets hear a few opinions for the next show and maybe even a few mp3 files if we would be so fortunate.


'@ Julie' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-10-03 02:00:23 CST
You want to play Order on Volkmar (waves hands ala Obi Wan). Another good show, quickly becoming my favorite on the collective. I enjoy your passion for MMO's.

Serious you and Fran need to come to Volkmar.

'Info you asked about' by ScytheNoire
Submitted on 2008-10-03 02:47:50 CST
Some info you asked for, or didn't know about.

You can set party options by right click on your character avatar/health area in the top left of the screen. This will bring up the Party Options menu, and can change things there. It's just like in WoW.

Also, in the Social menu (o key or top left of the chat window) you can set things such as always creating new parties as closed.

You discussed problems people rolling need on items that were for your class. You might not realize that items change what they are based on what class you are. It's not with all items, and I'm not sure if they changed it or if it's just certain repaired items or how it works, but I know that some will show up as an item for your class for you, but it's an item for their class for them. So far I've only experienced this when in a party while in a PQ and when in Scenario's.

'You are so wrong about the tanks' by ScytheNoire
Submitted on 2008-10-03 03:06:25 CST
You two are so way off base with your comments about the tanks. I've played all four tank classes, and I can tell you right now, the Ironbreakers are the single best tank class in the game right now. They can take more damage, they are more important and useful in a group, and they are the single toughest class in the game.

Swordmaster depends on their build, are they a DPS build or a Defensive build? Much like the Black Orc, it depends on their build. My Black Orc is defensive and I can take a ton of damage, but I don't do any damage at all, I have a hard time killing even normal enemies. My friend plays a Black Orc and is DPS specced. He does great damage, slaughters things fast, but he's a lot softer than me and can't take a ton of damage.

So you two are way off base with your comments about the tanks. You are judging your experiences based on bad players on your server, or inability for people to play their classes, and wearing the wrong gear or the wrong spec.

I also think you are basing this off Tier 1 play, where people are below level 11 and don't even get to specialize yet. Wait until level 20+ when specialize becomes more important.

But you are way wrong about Order tanks. They are at least on par with Destuction, and on my server, Order win most of the time unless Destruction is really organized. In fact, it's almost always the more organized side that wins. But Order is not weaker by any means. Just find better players to play with who know how to play their class, know how to spec their character, and are geared properly.

And as far as taking six people to take down a Black Orc tank, that's true. Problem is that the Black Orc is doing no damage and if the other team is stupid enough to target the tank, they get what they deserve. Kill the softer high DPS classes.

You two are just so way off base though. It's enraging how wrong you are. Ironbreakers are easily the top tank in the game.

'Generic Post title' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-03 08:13:36 CST
@ ScytheNoire: thanks for the tip. We record the show in sections and I found the ability to make a party private after that section was recorded. My personal basis for wanting to keep a party private comes from Fran and I teaming up for RvR...with a third party member it makes it hard to find her and when we go out I use a class that supports hers.

As far as order tanks and your comment "You two are just so way off base though. It's enraging how wrong you are. Ironbreakers are easily the top tank in the game." I can only say this:

Enraging is it? Make you mad as hell and you're not going to take it any more? Time to quote one of the lines from the "Blade" where he talks to someone who is angry: "use it" Make a rebuttal and send it to us (keep it clean).

The thing is this (having also played iron breakers, black orcs and worked my way up to tier 2 combat) is that I can agree with all the people who scream at players in our guild that destruction is over powered - including one guild member who proudly announced that he had his first instance of someone rolling an alt on our server (badlands) just to tell him how overpowered his black orc is. Or I can agree with all the Ironbreakers who say "reet, you an' me ootside reet now!"

*julie casually step outsides and raises her Waaagh Stick in the air defiantly*

"Name's Inktomi - badlands server...come and get some."


'Play order?' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-03 08:39:52 CST
Play on the order side? On purpose? Are you insane?

On the other hand Fran plays order...maybe you can get her to play order on Volkmar but thanks for the invitation BurntSushi. Now play destruction...thats another matter altogether.

'Destruction' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-10-03 10:16:35 CST
I tried to play Destruction Julie, but sadly the classes just did not interest me as much as the Order side.

I decided to make my main character a DPS Melee. I tried Marauder first and I felt like the DPS wasn't there compared to the others along with stance dancing (I absolutely hate the stance dance for a melee dpser), then I moved to the Witch Elf and while damage was good, I felt entirely too squishy for its role.

I tried the Order side of Melee DPS and I found the White Lion very fun with decent damge and then the Witch Hunter, let me tell you, I LOVE THE Witch Hunter. I felt the DPS output was amazing compared to the other classes in that specific role. I don't know if it is due to playstyle or just balance issues, but I frequently am at the top of scenario lists as #1 in damage, kills and solo kills.

I like about 7 classes in Order that I want to play but only 3-4 on Destruction.

So like I said before Julie, you NEED to play on Order in Volkmar lol.

'Destruction' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-10-03 10:34:47 CST
I tried to play Destruction Julie, but sadly the classes just did not interest me as much as the Order side.

I decided to make my main character a DPS Melee. I tried Marauder first and I felt like the DPS wasn't there compared to the others along with stance dancing (I absolutely hate the stance dance for a melee dpser), then I moved to the Witch Elf and while damage was good, I felt entirely too squishy for its role.

I tried the Order side of Melee DPS and I found the White Lion very fun with decent damge and then the Witch Hunter, let me tell you, I LOVE THE Witch Hunter. I felt the DPS output was amazing compared to the other classes in that specific role. I don't know if it is due to playstyle or just balance issues, but I frequently am at the top of scenario lists as #1 in damage, kills and solo kills.

I like about 7 classes in Order that I want to play but only 3-4 on Destruction.

So like I said before Julie, you NEED to play on Order in Volkmar lol.

'Ok...I'll bite' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-03 10:58:25 CST
In a recent interview one of the devs at Mythic (for the life of me I don't remember which one it was) said they didn't expect everyone to like all the classes. So to each their own. I have tried out most of the classes but I will admit to never having tried out the witch hunter class. It's one of those nebulous factors that has nothing whatsoever to do with the way the character plays or not...perhaps it is the hats I don't like. However, having played an order side character to 20 and a destruction side character that is rapidly approaching 20 I'll bite.

Why do I NEED to play order on the Volkmar server (let alone any server for that matter...beyond the need to see what 'the other side' is like of course).


'OPed Destruction' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-10-03 11:17:57 CST
Right now the game seems to go in "waves".
A week or two ago I would have nodded in agreement with the comment about destruction classes being stronger but I've come to the realization that it just seemed that way because of class balancing issues and level differences.
Maybe part of the problem with the lack of order tanks and healing is aesthetics. The sword master could be the greatest tank class in the game but they still wear a dress and that may not be overly appealing to the a lot of the type of person that plays a tank. As for the Ironbreakers, who wants to play a dorf?
The most popular order race is man and unfortunately they don't have a tank or a "pure healer". Maybe that is why every scenario seems to have 3 BW, 3 WH, 3WP, and 3 whatever.
Personally I like all three or the dwarf classes but can't stand playing a dwarf. They always gives me bad Tim Conway "Dorf on Golf" flashbacks.
As for the cross dressing male elfs, yeah.

'this is Mother Superior here.....' by FrancesKosac
Submitted on 2008-10-03 11:24:43 CST
Most of you know me simply as Sister Fran...well, to all those who are REALLY REALLY upset by our comments about Order side tanks...this was MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THE PHOENIX THRONE SERVER.....

I was playing my Dwarven Engineer named "Srfrances" and we were doing Nordenwatch scenario...and we were getting creamed...even though we had just as many if not more players than the Destruction side...people in "vent" were saying over and over, "we just don't have any REAL tanks!" Now, I kind of took offense to that, since I was playing a Dwarven Engineeer...I thought, "hey I'm pretty tough, AND I have a GUN!" Well, after about 15 min of playing, I realized just how "squishy" I really was. EVEN OUR DWARVEN IRONBREAKERS WERE GETTING KILLED BY THE ORCS, AND THE GOBBLINS!!! We lost, that battle, and every other one that I played. So, I switched characters, I rolled up a Bright Wizard, and a SwordMaster...of the three characters, I like the Sword Master the best, she can take so-so damage, and can give so-so damage, but she still dies....A LOT. Whereas, I notice when I am playing my Sword Master, that there are a lot of Orcs and Gobblins, that have 4-6 ppl banging away at them, and they seem to survive REALLY WELL...all the while in vent there is the SAME chatter, "we just don't have any REAL tanks, THEY have all the REAL TANKS!" Now, this is not what I said, it is what OTHER PEOPLE were saying...and I was simply agreeing, because it truly was my personal experience. So, I also, out of frustration, I rolled up an orc tank named, "Daisey"...she/he is sort of a "dainty" one (LOL). Anyway, I have done scenarios with that orc, and had like 4 ppl banging away at me, and I was able to kill them tell me that is not IMBALANCED???!!!! I think that I have played about 12 of the possible 17 character/sides that you can play, out of them all, my most favorite so far, FOR SURVIVABILITY, is the Orc, and the Sword Master. Maybe it was just that the Phoenix Throne server is disproportionate for Destruction vs. Order, but in Scenarios, we had equal amount of players, and lost every time. I really get disgusted you know, because no matter what side I'm playing, that's the side that must be my karma. Anyway, the comment about no REAL tanks on the Order side, it was more about comparing survivabilitiy and durability from the Order side versus the Destruction side. It just seems like all the "heavy Metal" armor tanks are ALL on the Destruction side....I think of the 8 possible character types/classes, 4 of them have "heavy" armor, whereas on the Order side, only Dwarven Ironbreakers, and Sword Masters (just TWO characters out of the 9 possible) on the Order side, have "heavy armor" you tell that balanced???

'Skaradrin Grudgestone, at yer service, lass.' by xBevisx
Submitted on 2008-10-03 12:26:31 CST
Im sorry to hear you lasses arent enjoying or feel the IB is up to much. I know its all personal preference/experineces so i'll throw some of my own into the ring.

Ive never really played a tank style character in any mmo before. It never really appealed to me and has always looked like it could be a stressful role. keeping aggro and looking after them dress wearing squishes. But I love Dwarves from 99% of IP's and I wanted the whole head to toe plate wearing brickhouse look, so Skaradrin was born (in a previous life he had been a WoW fury warrior, and Ive tried to keep his looks as similar as possible, mainly involving a wild looking unkempt beard!).

From the first few levels this class has made me grin like a madmen purely from the amount of damage Ive been soaking up. One of the first matches at Gates Of Ekrund that I joined, I rushed to the centre flag, planted my feet firmly in the ground and stood there the whole match. Not dying once! at some points I had 3-4 black orcs and lord knows how many gobbo's pounding on me and not once did i faulter. At points Im sure some of them gave up to find new targets as I simply wouldnt budge. On top of that, for scenarios, I can place quite high on the damage charts, higher than youd expect a tank class to be placed. Also helped tank three keep raids last night. Unfortunately they were all taken back by the time i logged on today. Curse destruction and their higher population!

On the flip side, when i am playing my marauder alt, if i see a enemy IB i know im gonna have a rough time taking him down. I also have a black orc alt called Guttskab. what ive found with him is he can do a tiny bit more damage than Skaradrin but also not soak up quite as much. Its a hard thing to compare at the same time because BO and IB although are in the same areas, they arent class mirrors. The IB's true mirror, Black Guard, were cut before release. It will be interesting to see how they turn out.

Great show and great debate fueller :D


'@ Fran and Julie about Tanks' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-10-03 12:30:59 CST
I don't think that there is too big of an imbalance with Tank classes, but it is more of learning how their mechanic benefits the role. Ironbreakers and Swordmasters are great Tanks.

Ironbreaker's Gruge mechanic is great when you duo with a healer or another Iron Breaker or Swordmaster (someone that is going to get attacked a lot, in order to build grudges to increase damage). The Swordmaster can seriously put out some signifigant DPS compared to the Black Orc with their mechanic along with making the Swordmaster able to deflect and/or take more damage than an Orc. I think that the Order tanks are better than the Chosen (Twisting needs some serious tweaking to be more effective) and definately better than the average Black Orc (from what I have seen). Also the key with tanks is have a good healer. A tank on any side with a good healer is an unstoppable juggernaught.

The Black Orc seems like the best tank only because of their easy to use mechanic and also Destruction seems to be really good with the heals on their tanks (at least on my server Volkmar), which gives the illusion that Black Orc and Chosen are unstoppable.

As a Witch hunter, I really do not have that hard of a time with fighting tanks unless they have a good healer on them. I have taken out my fair share of Chosen and Black Orcs. Black Orcs I can burn down fairly quick as long as they are distracted or if I have a healer keeping me in the fight.

I think that it comes down to this, learn the mechanic and see how it fits in the group. Sorry if that sounded like a L2P comment. lol.

'The Great Debat' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-03 12:52:13 CST
Wow...we could fill the entire next show with this one.

@ Burntsushi: Well actually if my goblin shaman has been able to take out ironbreakers all by her lonesome it seems as if the Ironbreakers that are opposite me in tier 2 on my server need to learn 2 play.

We have quite a quandry don't we here, ladies and gentlemen (and not so gentledwarves). There is no denying what Fran has experienced. After all she has experienced it. As for myself I don't think I am quite that good at pvp (and Fran has done a great deal of pvp as well) that it would account for the difference.

How can this be?

How can an ironbreaker be a wall of iron and steel - an impenetrable fortress in a metal suit on one server and not able to survie on another? Even with the differences in tactics being used at the moment, how can one black orc take so much damage on one server and not so much on another?

It must be a conspiracy...

'Wow' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-03 12:52:55 CST
I wish I could correct these things....the great DEBATE...

'HoT ftw' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-10-03 13:30:23 CST
A tank that is having HoTs tossed on him every few seconds appear indestructible. I think that is the difference people are experiencing. People don't always see the healer running around hotting the tank between other duties. Dest have a LOT of healers, there always seems to be one hidden in a bush somewhere.
When I am healing a reasonable rank IB with my AM they will not drop if I am allowed to heal unaccosted, don't care how many people are beating on him.

Also, a IB with 100 grudge built up does a lot of damage for a tank. Without the grudge, not so much.

As for the shaman beating the IB in pvp. I'm pretty sure my AM would kill a even level black orc in 1v1 pvp but I've never had the chance to try. The fight would be sloooow that in the time the fight would take someone will come along and either help me kill him or help him kill me.

Personally I think the balance between sides is quite good. There are some slight imbalances between the "mirrors" but they cancel each other out for the most part.

'Debat continues: Please Julie, Keep your eye on deball ;)' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-10-03 13:45:44 CST
Yes this would be a great show to discuss the differences in classes and what pairings and roles they perform in RvR and PvE.

@Julie :Well actually if my goblin shaman has been able to take out ironbreakers all by her lonesome it seems as if the Ironbreakers that are opposite me in tier 2 on my server need to learn 2 play.

Yes and you should as a Shaman because the lil gobbies can deal out some respectable damage along with very nice heals. With the mechanic on the Shaman, the more you heal, the better the damage and the more you damage the better you heal. So a lone Ironbreaker would have absolutely no chance against you (no healing for him and limited mechanic use). Tanks should go after Melee DPS and Ranged DPS and Healers or tanks when they are in a group.

I don't think that there is a conspiracy, just new mechanics for classes and people just need to find thier niche.

'Glad I found this podcast' by brogshan
Submitted on 2008-10-03 14:27:31 CST
A friend turned me on to Age of Conuns and I was very sad when it didn't go past episode 4. But No Rules, No Mercy is fantastic and I'm glad I still get to hear from Sisters Julie and Fran.

'Glad I found this podcast' by brogshan
Submitted on 2008-10-03 14:27:49 CST
A friend turned me on to Age of Conuns and I was very sad when it didn't go past episode 4. But No Rules, No Mercy is fantastic and I'm glad I still get to hear from Sisters Julie and Fran.

'Ladies and Gents we may have a winner' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-03 15:37:31 CST
@ Gnova: Well my own experience with HoTs in Warhammer didn't seem to be keep up with the tanks pounding on me when they are JUST hots. Now the flash heal +hots that my goblin shaman has are another story. They keep me up just long enough (well most times) to hit that wonderful moral ability.

However...and I think this is an important subject...


Yes I will admit it...when I went in to battle with my ironbreaker I did NOT make use of the Oath Friend. I will just bet that will make a WHOPPING LOT of difference.

@ Burntsushi: in fact it was the night before last I found myself YELLING IN GUILD CHAT..."ya I'm over powered...what are you order people gonna do about it?" Yes, I love playing my gobbo: Inktomi.

@ Brogshan: We are glad you found the new home of our podcasts. I still write for OGR, however let me say this about Age of Conuns. We started that podcast when AoC was fresh and new but about the time the show hit number 4 Funcom had started losing subscribers fast. The deciding factor for me was I just got tired of the way Funcom had lowballed their "recommended" system specs. No matter what I did, even on a system that exceeded the recommended system specs it still ran incredibly slow. In my book it was an incredibly deceptive business practice.

Then we found WAAAAAUG.

So we are glad to have you and everyone else. While the focus of the show has become Waaaugh we will always be discussing mmo news of the week; that, after all, is what the articles I write for virgin worlds have always been about.

So...glad to see you here Brogshan.

I might also say, about grudgebearing. Whether or not this accounts for the difference I STILL say it is a conspiracy. Either that or magic. One of the two.


'music' by Brent
Submitted on 2008-10-04 17:24:14 CST
Does anyone else do a double-take everytime they hear the old VirginWorlds theme music on this podcast? I do, but I might be the only one.

'Music...part 2' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-05 08:45:45 CST
KInd of interesting how that came about...I was editing the podcasts and one day Fran asked to take over. I was busy so I said sure. She asked me where I got the royalty free music. I replied "it's a web site that Brent told me about called podsafe audio."

I came home that evening and listened to the newly edited podcast and got to the segue music. I said to myself..."that sounds so familiar". Then I called up the stairs (with a smile of course. Fran is also my Mother Superior) "I think we stole Brents" music.

But remember, the greatest form of flattery is immitation - even if it is entirely accidental.


'Phoenix Throne' by Celestian
Submitted on 2008-10-06 11:42:36 CST
"Well Gnova, could be and one thing is for sure, on the Phoenix throne server there certainly not enough of them on the order side. "

I also play on Phoenix Throne and I can agree with Julie on this topic. I play a healer (archmage) and it's not uncommon at all to have 0 tanks in a scenario in T3. If we do have them it's 1-2 tops while Destro will have like 4-5+ all their melee DPS which will chew up all of us because we have ... 1-2 tanks to protect us at best and zero at worst.

I'm not giving up on Order but they really need to look at the balance issues regarding class "power" and how to get Order some more tanks.

'Tanks alot' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-06 13:00:35 CST
@ Everyone: I that we have a sponser...yay!!! Thank you so much to Ceadrick from We will make sure to make an anouncement on the next show (which we are half way through with recording now - it should be out by Wednesday evening).

@ Celestian: it's nice that someone hasn't given up on the order side - there has to be someone else to fight doesn't there? It wouldn't be any fun if we were all destruction? Yes, it does seem to me that destruction gets a bit more lovein' from the fine folks at Mythic and my new main is a level 20 Goblin Shaman on the badlands server. My number one alt (I have alot of alts) is level 20 on the Pheonix Throne server and is Shadow Warrior. No tanks? Thats and RUN!


'I'm finally getting in the pool.' by Vroshnak
Submitted on 2008-10-06 13:31:05 CST
I really was going to hold off on Warhammer. I'm sorta burned out with my Age of Conan experience, and I'm really enjoying a free to play MMO called Atlantica Online.

However, recently I met a group of people over the internet who wanted to meet weekly at a guy's house and play Warhammer tabletop roleplaying. Awesome, I'm 30 with a wife and job but here's guys night gaming anyways. It's been great for a few weeks.

Some of these guys started playing Warhammer Online. I think the stars have aligned for me, I need to play this game. I think I will hold myself back to stay with the group... I'm one of those people that even with limited time tends to level very quickly. But this game will be different, I will pace myself and play with friends. But these friends want to play on the Order side. Can they be trusted?

I love this podcast. Hearing nuns having detailed MMO discussions is at first a mind blowing event, but when you get past that you discover it is really good discussion no matter what the source is. This isn't just a novelty act, this is WAAAAAGH!

'Come on in the waters fine...' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-06 15:22:16 CST
HI there Vroshnak - come onb in to the pool, the water is fine. I too painted one of the armies (a greenskin army). If you can handle the endless hours of painting (certainly a labor of love, for you have to love to do it) the tabletop game gives a unique perspective on Warhammer that the Online game will not. In the tabletop game you can handle the entire army, like an RTS.

I am sure you will find, as you go along (I am up to Tier 3 myself) that Mythic has done a wonderful job of recreating the Warhammer Universe. More than once I have been playing my Goblin Shaman and walked by a goblin sticka and said to the computer screen "hey I painted those"!

As far as progress is concerned, it seems that most of the players on the two servers I play on are still in Tier one and Tier two. I think pacing yourself is a great idea.

I am glad you like the podcast. Yes, we have heard the whole "mind blowing" thing before but times change don't they?

Now the big question is can people who play the order side be trusted? My initial reaction (tongue firmly in cheek) is to say "no". However, if you must play the order side think of yourself as a spy for the "big boss".

Welcome to the pool


'Of Order Tanks and Golf...' by Sentack
Submitted on 2008-10-06 17:12:52 CST
Okay, Audio Rant is incoming, I can't help it. I'll try to get it done sometime tomorrow night, but by damn I will not let the challenge go unanswered.

First of all, I play on Destruction side on Phoenix Throne. My main is a level 26 Disciple of Khaine and I've been playing in a lot of Scenarios. Here's what I got to say...

No Order Tanks!? Are you lasses insane?

Let me just get a few things across, Of all the four tanks in the game, all 4 have the same armor value. Read that again, The same. They all get "Heavy Armor". Yes, even that little flowery elf girl with the big sword. They get Heavy Armor. It's Heavy Armor in the form of robes but it's heavy armor. Same Armor Rating which means same amount of damage absorbing. If your tanks are dieing a lot, it's partly to do with the fact that a lot of healers just don't heal, and tons of Focus Fire, which makes everyone look squishy.

Second thing, one thing Order doesn't lack is Knockbacks, You'll see these soon enough. A Knockback is an ability to push a player away from you, causing them to fly into the air.

You know what they call the Tier 3 Scenario Tor Anroc? Ironbreaker Golf! "Dwarf: Four!!!!!!!!! *Whack* Goblin: Aaaaaaaaaaah! *Splat in Lava*"

Tor Anroc is an indoor scenario with a lot of lava. A LOT of lava and boy do Ironbreakers love that map. Right now, at Tier 3, I would say the top 3 Order classes I see are Ironbreakers, Rune Priests and Bright Wizards. Golf, Heals and Face Melters. And what's sad is just how popular Tor Anroc has become, if you queue up for any Scenario, you end up going to that one.. *sigh*

Well I'll save more ranting for my audio version. Get ready to hear from me on Wednesday. I'll have a lot to say...

'Lack of Order Tanks part 2' by Celestian
Submitted on 2008-10-06 18:38:56 CST
"No Order Tanks!? Are you lasses insane?"

As you said, you play on Phoenix Throne, the other side of me. Yes, we have a serious lack of tanks. You might see 1-2 on our side but when you look at your team you have 4-5 plus all the melee dps.

Secondly, you said order doesn't lack Knockbacks, infact destruction has more classes with knockbacks than Order.

T3 isn't the issue, it's the fact Order has poor melee DPS and very few tanks. Destruction has the lion share of both and have you ever tried being all softies against all tanks/melee dps? Try it and come back and tell me how it went. More than likely it was them running through everyone like a parade banner. 1 tank can't protect against all those melee and tanks, period.

That doesn't include things like BOs being able to heal and WE's kisses doing 2.5k damage in 10 seconds when they aren't suppose to do remotely near that much.

'Rant on' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-06 18:40:43 CST
We will look forward to having you on the show. It will help the audio quality greatly if you can record it at 44100 hz. As to Knockbacks I will have to agree. In fact on the last show I recall talking about the knockback that my high elf shadow warrior used all the time.

It will be nice to have a guest on the show.

Rant away my friend...(just keep it clean or relatively so)


'*waves hands wildly*' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-06 18:43:59 CST
Oh about this...dueling rants. How about one from Sentack and one from celestian. Oh pleeeeeeesssse. Audactiy is free to download and use. It's what we use. Send them both to half the show is recorded. The second half records on wednesday.

I look forward to boty of your responses....


'Debates...' by Celestian
Submitted on 2008-10-06 23:02:31 CST
I am not really trying to rant, if I come across that way I apologize. After being beat down so much I tend to just be blunt.

Just saying how it really is. I just ran 5 scenarios in a row and only 1 had a single tank. The last mission we did had 2 BOs, 2 Chosen, 4 Maraders and 3 DokS. That was the scenario we had 1 tank...

You tell me how that went eh.

Another scenario...Try doing Temple of Isha w/o tanks...

'Both sides' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-06 23:15:01 CST
@ Celestian: you don't sound like you are ranting at all. It would just be nice to feature both sides of the issue on a podcast. guests on the podcast are alway a very good thing and the more the merrier.


'Tanks, no tanks.' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-10-07 00:42:50 CST
There is no doubt in my mind that the order tanks are as tough as the dest tanks.

The difference is that the destruction tanks look cool. The order tanks, well face it, look pretty dire. You can be a girlie elf in a dress or a 3 foot tall tin can. Compare that to a Black Orc or Chosen on the destruction side.
If I had decided to play a tank as a main when I first logged into game I would have rolled a desto tank for looks alone.
Unfortunately, except for a couple of the empire classes, order got the short end of the aesthetic coolness stick.
I guess I can look at it this way, I have better looking corpses to look at and loot after we kill them.

'Quote of the week...' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-07 06:50:49 CST
"I guess I can look at it this way, I have better looking corpses to look at and loot after we kill them." - Gnova

But how do you REALLY feel about it? I think this will make a great quote of the week. We finish recording tommorow if all goes well.


'Tanks all around...' by Sentack
Submitted on 2008-10-07 09:38:10 CST
Well I'm still going to try and get my comment in by tomorrow morning for you gals. I don't mean to get into a ravenous flame war, but I'll try to get my main points across. Namely, 1. The tanks on both sides of the fence have the same defense. 2. The grass is greener on the other side. 3. Knockbacks. And now 4. Who wins the Melee DPS wars?

In general, I can't argue if people perceive a lack of something on their side of the fence. I think that Order has plenty of tanks and are _not_ lacking at all in Knockbacks. I think people tend to run solo in scenarios and never for the benefit of the team, often for the benefit of themselves. And these are things that plague both sides of the fence.

Over all, I wish I could play Order with you people but of course, now I'm playing opposite you, so I can't. But I am playing order on Ostermark, and a female Swordmaster at that! Just because I want people to get beat up by a lady with a big shield and a sword, damn it! A female Ironbreaker would even be more histarical but I really like the Swordmasters, so I'm going with that. But I have to split my time between the two servers, so leveling is going rather slowly for both.

So over time, I hope to see both sides of the fence, but for now, I need to get back to work! Recording I will go later....

'Knockbacks and DPS' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-07 10:39:12 CST
Actually I don't ever recall talking about knockbacks on the show other than to point out that my shadow warrior has this greak knockback moral ability that she uses. But hey...always willing to hear a concern.

I will sure agree about the "grass always greener" comment. As I have been saying, Destruction always thinks the order always wins and order always thinks destruction always wins. There is a great quote from a recent Jeff Hickman interview we will talk about on the next show that discusses that.

As to picking a side, if you are playing destruction you aren't playing on the opposite side that I am, just on another server. However I have been leveling up destruction and order about evenly: level 20 on the order side and level 21 on the destruction side.


'Server...' by Sentack
Submitted on 2008-10-07 10:50:05 CST
I play on Phoenix Throne Destruction. I think you two play Phoenix Throne Order, so I can't play order characters on that server.

I don't recall hearing about what server you play Destruction on. Never the less, I am playing Order a little bit. Although I'm not so hot on the server I'm on now for Order, so I'm willing to move to another one.

'Generic post title' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-07 11:15:10 CST
On the order side we both play on Phoenix throne and on the Destruction side we play on Badlands. Most of my time is spent on Badlands lately on the destruction side. The order side? Well for my own part, I can't speak for Fran but we have considered starting an order side guild. I love my destruction side guild and have no plans on leaving it. But order side? Well I think its time for a change...could be...


'Run it up the flagpole' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-07 13:20:27 CST
Grandmother had an expression she used to use: "run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it."

So let me run a proposal up the flagpole and see if anyone wants to salute it.

Fran and I were interested in forming a new guild on the Pheonix Throne server on the order side. Would any of you be interested in such a thing?

Let us know - either here or by email at


'Order tanks' by Letrange
Submitted on 2008-10-07 16:02:26 CST
I think it's equipment related - specifically renown equipment related. I was struggling as a tank with the SM till I did some scenarioes and unlocked up to my rank in renown equipment. Then OMG did things change. Some tips:

an SM with a greatsword is NOT a tank
an SM with a FAST sword and shield IS a tank

The reasons is that there is a buff that you put on your sword that activates an absorption field on 1/4 of every hit you do. More hits = More absorption = better tanking. Also there is HEAVY equipment with SERIOUS toughness and better shields. At level 11 I was soloing chapter 2 heroes. Can't do that with the greatsword. Can with the shield and sword. Tanking the SM is VERY equipment sensitive - also slapping in the toughness talismans is a must.

But do you notice the chicken and egg part? To get the right equipment you need to renown up. THEN you can tank. But to get the equipment you need to run scenarios. As a lousy tank. Once you get done though, the difference it makes is staggering. At level 11 unless I had half the destruction side concentrating on me, even without healing backup I wasn't in much danger.

Now of course the problem is I'll be a lousy tank till I run some more scenarioes in Tier 2, get the equipment for THAT, and I can't really do that till I hit level 16 or so and become less than totally useless due to missing actions (they scale up your stats to a minimum level but they don't scale up your actions when joining a scenario).

'I have yet to get Sr Frances' by FrancesKosac
Submitted on 2008-10-07 16:59:03 CST
As for the "tanking" of the Sword Masters (SM's), Mine is only level 13, and I think she has pretty good gear...I haven't really had anything to compare it to till your post. Yes I will agree with you on the, "as you go up in level you can take more damage" comment. I seem to have died a LOT in lower levels, but now, that I'm in tier 2, I'm now again the "low woman on the totem pole", and I get slaughtered if I even think of doing any RvR or PvP. But I do pretty good in PvE, so I'm just working on that till I get up to around 17, then I will do some RvR and PvP. But, I want EVERYONE who has posted here to know...Sr. Julie and I are learning as we go, along with all of you. This game is new, and unless you play 24/7, most of us are tier 2-3, and even if we have a tier 3 character, it's just that ONE character, we know little if anything about other characters. In my case, I have an Order Dwarf Engineer lvl 12, and an Order Sword Master lvl 13. I also have about 4-5 characters on the Destruction side, but they are all around lvl 5. I'm GLAD our comments have sparked such a lively discussion, at least we know people are listening, AND reacting to what we have to say. But, I'm sure we will learn that tanks get better as they level up, on BOTH sides. I also agree with the person who commented on the fact that it is a GOOD thing that the Destruction side and Order side are not "mirrors" of each other. It makes you need to STRATEGIZE MORE, which was the whole point to the tabletop game, was it not?? So, Order people may have to actually WORK WITH ONE ANOTHER...OMG...WHAT A CONCEPT!!! Thanks for ALL the posts, and the lively makes us happy to know people are passionate enough to leave posts, and it helps us create better THANKS TO ALL THOSE WHO POSTED ON THIS SHOW...WE LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FUTURE POSTS FROM YOU!!!

Sr. Frances

'Server?' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-10-07 20:27:11 CST
What sever are you on for Order and Chaos? I can't remember which one.

'Guild on Phoenix Throne' by Celestian
Submitted on 2008-10-07 21:58:16 CST
I'm currently running a guild (Grey Council) that has been around since about 1999 (EQ1) so while I can't offer to be in your guild I'll be happy to group with them or get into some RVR.

I'm currently in T3 about to push past and hit T4 (I'm 31) so I might not be able to do much for a while ;(

Either way feel free to drop me a mail in game (Celestian is also my character) if you have any questions or want to run some scenarios together.

'Guilds on Phoenix' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-09 10:06:01 CST
@ Celestian: Well we just uploaded show number 9 and on it, about half way through the show, we talked about this issue. There is always the possibility of course, that there wont' be any takers. I have indeed seen the Grey Council members on Phoenix Throne. I guess we will just have to wait a bit and see if anyone salutes the flag once we run it up the flagpole.

Fran always says she is happy without a guild as she has been "burnt" many times by guilds. I spend alot of time on the destruction side while she spends alot of time on the order side. However it would be nice to get out and see the "pretty" side of things now and then.


'music' by Klojamir
Submitted on 2008-10-10 09:58:43 CST
I love hearing the segway music, on the other side of it though I expect Brents voice. Its all good though. I love it.

'Music and Brents voice' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-10 11:10:03 CST
Speaking of Brents voice it would be great of we could get Brent to do a "your listening to..." sort of drop for us. The music is great and I love hearing it as well. Its a small world they say, and even smaller when you get royalty free music from the same place Brent does (thanks for the url Brent). Sister frances edited the last two shows and picked out that music - I got home and couldn't figure out why it sounded so familiar when I was listening to her edit the show. Then it dawned on me. I called up the stairs, "Sister I think we stole Brent's music". God bless hime Brent said he doesn't see it that way. I edited show number nine and I did leave it in as segue music but thats as far as I used it. I changed the music at the end of the show to a group from the same site called "Hair Club for Men". Odd sounding name but they are talented musicians.


'Of tanks, rabbling, and ruler-smacking...' by Crovan
Submitted on 2008-10-13 09:42:14 CST
Stephen and I play on Phoenix Throne on the Destruction side (Sister Fran, you are put on notice! =P), and I feel like I cant step into a scenario without tripping over 3 Ironbreakers. One interesting thing I have noticed is that the class dynamics have gone completely bass ackwards in the last couple of weeks as far as what people are rolling. When my Black Orc hit Tier 2, it was really hard to play Mourkain Temple, because both sides had half a dozen tanks and 3-4 healers at minimum, so nobody could kill the guy with the thing. Now, however, I've rolled a Victoria Secret model, and it seems like all the tanks have gone to a convention instead of coming to the scenarios. I just moved on to Tier 2 with her, and there is nary a tank to be found in some matches, while my Black Orc, now in Tier 3, still muddles through 4 other tanks to get where he's going.

I really do feel like the Order tanks are on par with the Destro ones, by and large. Sure, I've been the Black Orc standing there with five people beating on my hide and made it through, but I didn't kill any of them, and they did eventually wear me down. On the converse, I have seen an IB stand up to a monumental amount of damage as well. With a tank + healer vs. 3-5 opponents without a healer, the tank and healer will win, or at least kill more than they lose the vast majority of the time, and I honestly think that goes for both sides. An IB + RP team can tank over half of the Destro team until someone figures out to attack the healer.

Just my $.02, but I really do think that, while there are inevitably some balance issues (such as the Ironbreaker's 80 foot knockback...not a hyperbole), the classes, when taken as a whole, do a fair job of balancing out.

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-10-14 10:28:04 CST
Well as we read on the last show, one of the devs commented that the mix of classes seems to change and flow as do the wins and losses in scenarios and RvR. One thing is for certain (at least on Badlands) and that there is a definate progression of the majority of players as they level from tier to tier. When I first reached Tier 3 it was deserted. Now it is full of players. When I go back to Tier 1 with an alt, now it is deserted - at least the pve is. I am still able to get a game in Nordenwatch thanks to the "cross pairing ques". When I was active on the order side (I leveled up to Tier 3) everyone claimed destruction always wins. Now that I am up to level 26 on the Destruction side Order always seems to win. I think the side that wins is always the side that plays opposite Fran (at least she seems to think so).

In the end, I guess what makes a tank really, really tough is a good healer. This does not, however, stop lightly armored characters like Witchelves from charging into battle and then screaming..."MEDIC".

Thanks for the great and thought provoking comments. They mean alot to us.