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No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

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Related site: http://www.virginworlds.com/blog.php?cat=julie


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No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 40
Sun, 2 Aug 2009 16:57:00 GMT [download/play]



Welcome to show 40!
 
Welcome to an "easy and fun" (inside joke)...er...exciting edition of No Prisoners, No Mercy.
 
We have some fabulous guests: Keen from Keen and Graevs Gaming blog is back as well as part 3 of the interview series with Paul Barnett. This week Paul Barnett talks about "Life, the Universe and Man-dolls". We also have short-shorts news and commentary and a special last minute addition "EA steps in it." 
 
See you online
 
Julie and Fran

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Episode 40 Discussion Thread

'/wave' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-08-03 02:45:06 CST
Can't wait to get listening!


'/wave back' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-03 04:16:18 CST
We hope you enjoy listening to it as much as we did recording it. Next up...

Scott Hartsman in a two part interview.

Julie



'nice' by Token
Submitted on 2009-08-03 07:11:16 CST
Wow Scott Hartsman as well, which episode is Barrack Obama gonna be on?


'We should be so lucky' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-03 11:12:48 CST
@Token...

We should be so lucky - I am a big fan of the President. I don't think we will get guests like Scott Hartsman and Paul Barnett every week however. Especially since not everyone in the industry are quite as nice as those two were...



'Go For It' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-08-03 18:20:03 CST
You should try to get Barrack Obama on the show. That would rock! With how open he is with the public and interviews, I could actually see it happen. Even if he denies, at least you could say you tried. "Barack Obama on Gaming" I can see it now!

Great show as always Sisters!



'Brute' by Token
Submitted on 2009-08-04 15:35:04 CST
If you go to this URL you can make a Brute who gets 3 fights a day. It's quite fun to take a couple of mins to see how your Brute is progressing, they get weapons and skills, fights are automated!

http://tokenoblivion.mybrute.com



'Thoroughly Enjoyed them Both...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-08-04 23:16:38 CST
It's good to hear from the more personal side of people in the gaming industry. Helps remind us that they're people too with lives and families. There's more to their lives than dealing with their fanatic yet fickle fan-base. I laughed when Keen talked about a troll on his blog and people telling him to be more objective, on a freakin blog! I've had my share of that too. Rather incredulous.


'Generic Post Titles' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-05 12:44:00 CST
@ Saylah: thanks for your kind words. Some of the guests have been open, friendly and personal and some have not. Before the show started even Scott Hartsman talked about how Paul Barnett was a tough act to follow. But a vibrant personality, while it may make for interesting content, doesn't always make for a good friend. The best industry contacts we have, the kindest people, are those who say "but don't use my name."

Julie



'Show time well spent, well most of it.' by Celestian
Submitted on 2009-08-05 16:57:09 CST
I dunno if this is a "flame proof undies" topic but seriously does anyone actually read these blogs everyone talks about? Why would you bother reading some nobodies blog about some topic. It's no different than reading a forum only they thought they were so important as to make a webpage and post their single message about it.

Now if it's a blog from an author, dev, gaming company thats another monster all-together. It's more of a "news" blurb than just a blog. They are talking about a subject and have direct control over the content. A user site is just that, someone that is just yapping about some topic and it really has no baring on anything. If they left the planet no one would notice in relation to the topic.

Perhaps some folks see them like I do podcasts. Entertaining and/or news. Though I listen to podcasts to kill time while I work or drive. If I'm at my PC I'm not going to read about a game I like, I'll be playing it instead of reading some nobody talk about playing it.



'Yes and No' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-05 17:07:57 CST
I am not sure which blog you are talking about, or if you have in mind a site more like Massively. Some people, like myself, do indeed read the blogs we discuss, and enjoy the authors. If you have in mind keen, from Keen and Graevs, yes his blog is very, VERY well read. I should point out that the section he had on writing was in the show by request of the audience.

A good example of who reads blogs is Tipas blog from west Karana that is very widely read (including by myself) and she has a wonderful feature (which she has discussed on the show) where she has sort of a "virtual tour" through many popular blog sites/subjects.

While it would be nice to have the Paul Barnetts, and Scott Hartsmans on the show all the time it is usually very difficult to accomplish that.

Julie



'Regarding blogs' by Celestian
Submitted on 2009-08-05 17:31:45 CST
I was mainly talking about Keen, the fella you had on the podcast. I rather enjoyed the rest of the show ;)

Massively is mostly a news site. Least the bits of it I read which is why I don't see the site as a blog. Listening to Keen I couldn't think of a single reason to look at his "blog" other than some guy yapping on about what he thinks a game should do or why he doesn't like it/etc. Like I said, sounds like he'd be better off posting his "blog" on forums because it sounds like that's all it is.

I just don't understand the "blog" of random joe-blow. It's like some random guy in the street standing on a podium shouting out his ramblings on some topic hoping to find someone else to talk to about it.



'Well, well...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-05 17:53:12 CST
Well here is the line up for the next show:

Julie and Fran
A response/editorial by JMO
The first part of an 2 part interview with Scott Hartsman

All recorded, but still being edited.



'It keeps getting better' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-07 14:05:28 CST
Hello all,

As we finish up editing show 41 (it will be uploaded this evening) with guests JMO from JMO's gaming blog and not addicted, Ricknas Sarn from Free to Play, an Scott Hartsman (who should need no introduction - if not think of him as one of the people who saved EQ2)...

It is with a great deal of pleasure that I am able to announce that Total Biscuit has agreed to be a guest on an upcoming show. We will be going to recording soon and he should be on show 42 or 43 depending on how things turn out.

Julie



'Woot!' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-08-08 03:00:11 CST
Hey, that says it all. =p


'Got a blog - finally' by Yoh
Submitted on 2009-08-09 04:48:52 CST
Took the plunge and made a blog.
What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.

Got a few posts already, so if you give a crap, check it out.
http://exnfrustration.blogspot.com/

It's basically just a gaming/artist/mmo developer in-the-making blog.


I think within the next couple of days I'm going to slam Paul Barnette, as for one it seems like the thing to do these days, and two, there's things he's said I take issue with.
So I'm going to kick him in the face.
(although it's not just him, and I think he is one of the better developers - he's still old thou)

~Yoh



'Old eh?' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-10 11:41:49 CST
@ Yoh

Old eh?

Let me say this about that:

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." - Mark Twain

P.S. Congratulations on the blog.

Oh and show 41 delayed due to technical difficulties with the recording process - it should be completed today.

Julie



'Yes, old' by Yoh
Submitted on 2009-08-10 21:21:25 CST
Of course I'm using computer years. ^^
He's about 15 years older then me, and in terms of computer technology, that's positively ancient.

Try using a 15 year old computer today. Good luck on that one.
My point is, that things with computers and gaming change so rapidly, and I feel thous in Paul Barnette's age group, may have settled on innovations of the day, but by todays standard are a bit crusty.

But of course this 'old kind of thinking holding up progress' is not just limited to gaming, as you can see it clearly in politics and business as well.

Maybe it's the rose colored glasses, but it makes you wonder why these people can push out crappy products, and not know their crap. (or if I were to be cynical, they know all along, and don't care)

Armchair psychology ftw. :P

~Yoh



'Computer years' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-11 01:06:44 CST
@ Yoh: "computer years" eh? So is this anything like "Dog Years"? I am told that one dog year equals seven human years. All this leaves me wondering how many "computer years" equals one developer year? I am also wondering why it is that people in Paul Barnetts "age group" use computers that are 15 years old - is it some sort of contract that people sign? If so I don't recall ever signing one and I am wondering if I am, perhaps, in some law somewhere.

Usually at this point I would suggest that you are comparing apples and oranges but in this case I think you are comparing apples and fusion reactors.

As wondering why "these people" not knowing crap:

Does this mean people who age in years expressed by a coefficent of a major appliance? All game developers or Paul Barnet in particular? Also I might point out that even if Paul Barnett did "know crap" all the ability to properly identify dung would do would be to tell him whether or not there is a cute fuzzy deer with a white tail on the trail ahead of him or a grizzly bear waiting to tear his head off.

As a last thought I am wondeirng now - if Paul Barnett ages in computer years does this mean he can be depreciated? If so do we use straight line depreciation?

Just wondering

Julie



'Bad Math' by Yoh
Submitted on 2009-08-11 06:34:28 CST
@ Juile, first off, I think you meant seven dog years to one human year, not the other way around . ^^

Next, I'm a bit tired here, so forgive me if I sound a bit incoherent. Even thou I sound a bit incoherent at the best of times.

What I was referring to was the generation gap that separates us, which often has influences on our perception of things. Ever notice that you love your music, but you hate your parents music?

And it seems to me, that Paul Barnette (and many other developers as well) grew up in an age of pen and paper roleplaying, with the paintable models, MUD's and the dawn of MMO's.
You yourself have expressed a keen interest in Warhammer model painting.

But to my generation, we grew up with computers and consoles, and with our lifetime these platforms have done a 180. Year after year, things change so rapidly, it's hard to keep up at times. And one thing I've learned, is to be a quick adapter.
Now from my perspective, when I hear talk of pen and paper roleplaying, MUD's, and model painting, I scratch my head in confusion wondering what the appeal of that is.
It sounds boring.

Now I know perfectly well the historic important of these kinds of games, so I don't need a lecture. But my point is, that the innovations such as levels, and classes, and all these other things that were made in that generation, may seem by your (or Paul Barnette's) perception to be perfectly fine or even really very good, but by my generation perception, their relics that are in dire need of a trash can.

And it seems unfortunate that thous in a position of power to change things, then to be in the generation which don't necessarily see the problem. Catch 22.

So when I was saying earlier about 'knowing crap', I was referring to levels, classes and essentially the status quo, which just doesn't cut it anymore.
So it was of no surprise to me that Warhammer Online failed in the way that it did. I could see the cracks, and could smell the crap a mile off.
It's obvious to me, but is was it obvious to Paul Barnette? I don't know, I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure, but it doesn't look like it as result speak for themselves.

(And of course I realize he isn't to blame for all of it, as he is but one man in a company. But he was in a position to change things, at least by my perspective he was. Which begs the question, why didn't he?)


I don't know, it's a real head scratcher. But I'm just not sure a lot of these big wig, older generation gamers really know what the new generation of gamers want in a game. Or it could just be our inability to communicate effectively. Whatever.

But one thing that I do know for sure, is the current trend of MMO's turns me off completely.

~Yoh



'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-11 11:45:54 CST
First off we (and that is the royal we) are sorry for the delay due to technical difficulties and our apologies to Ricknas Sarn who will be heard on a later show as a result of said difficulties.

I am pleased to announce, however, that show 41 with guests Total Biscuit and Scott Hartsman has been uploaded. Join us for nearly an hour and a half of gaming goodness.

Julie

p.s. to Yoh:

Those be alot of words for this lil' gal this early in the mornin' I haven't even had my first pot...er...cup o' coffee. Then again it could jus' be my "inability to communicate effectively" along with those "older" gamers like Paul Barnett....

OOOOWEEE

My brain be hurtin' now wit' all them big werds. Still it leaves me pondering things like:

1. How is it that anyone thinks the age of a body has anything to do with the abilities of the mind to grasp a concept or create a coherant sentence.

2. How is it the people like Paul Barnett that "Don't know crap" manage to get to the top of the industry if they are such stupid people.

3. What would happen if the creative director of a game developer suddenly walked into the executive producers office and told them "we are going to scrap everything and start over" and how long he would be looking for word after he attempted such a thing.



'nearly' by Token
Submitted on 2009-08-11 16:52:04 CST
I was hoping Yoh would provide flame proof undies material there. Something like ' you nuns are too old to play games ', but he didn't :(


'Youth is wasted on the young' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-08-11 18:41:36 CST
@ Yoh,

Whether you like WAR or not, Paul Barnett was given a pretty hefty challenge. Take the table top game of Warhammer and make it a MMO. This is not something you'd just hand over to some young inexperienced person with strong opinions who's only foundation for doing anything is because it's just what they think. After all the podcasts, interviews, and articles on Paul Barnett I've seen and read, there's no doubt in my mind the man has earned his place as Mythic's Creative Director.

Should a person become uninterested and dispassionate about games as they get older? Can it be that nobody likes the kinds of games Paul Barnett likes? That nobody out there finds WAR fun? Would removing the level mechanic really make a MMO next gen?

Answer to all: No.



'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-11 21:27:48 CST
@Seritaph: Nope...no flames. On the other hand I submitted an article called "Seven Years" on a related subject. We will talk about the article on the next show which will include Part 2 of the Scott Hartsman interview that was uploaded today. The show after that will feature the second part of the interview with Total Biscuit of wcradio.com

Julie



'Scott Hartsman...' by Luper
Submitted on 2009-08-11 22:08:58 CST
...is an awesome guy. :)

Tons of fun to hang out with.



'I will take your word for it...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-11 22:24:08 CST
@ Luper: Even if he were a good friend it is a bit hard to hang out with somone who lives on the other side of the country - so I will have to take your word for it. I will say that it was great fun to interview him for the show.

Julie



'Got a match?....' by Yoh
Submitted on 2009-08-11 23:30:10 CST
Ok first a disclaimer: I got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, and I'm feeling kinda snaky. So forgive me when I rip somebodies head off.

Oh, and sorry about the wall of text, I waffle.


Ok you two, what with the strawmen? Did you bother comprehending what I said before replaying?

First Julie, point 1 has zero % to do with anything I said, I'm talking about PERCEPTION, not competence.
Point two, charisma, but that's again, besides the point. How he got to the position he did is irrelevant. In all likelihood, he and his constituents believe that their ideas on what an MMO is, were relevant for the time in which their product would be released, which has been proved to be in error. The reason for this belief, is what I'm arguing for.

Where did I even state anything remotely like that? (point 3)
I never said anything about scrapping anything. Part of it is knowing from the outset, so you don't even go down the road that will lead into probable failure, and if you do find major flaws in your design, then fix those specific flaws and deal with the ramifications the best you can. Oops, I made a mistake with my painting, I guess I should throw the whole thing out now....... "face palm"

Please Julie, I know it's (was) early for you, but please try to understand what I'm talking about first. Geez....


Now onto my favorite punching bag.....

First point, cry me a fucking river. So what if he had a hard task, it's his fucking job. Point two, nice strawman with the argument from experience.
A persons experience and qualification doesn't not hinge on age, and it is irrelevant to the point I was making. Again, it's fucking perception, which DOES hinge of age. (at least to some degree)

Now with your 4...... stupid questions.
1) No, of course not, but I said nothing of the like.
2) Again, no. but the paradigm does shift over time, and you have to recognize that or risk getting left behind.
3) Some do I'm sure, like some people like chess. But to pretend like it's hot shit, when all you've done is reinvent the wheel, is disingenuous.
4) By it's self? No, don't be think. But it is part of the problem, and should be put out to pasture with a bunch of tired old mechanics, and, idk, REPLACED with new mechanics that can do the job better. FFS man.

Overall your looking at all this far too simplistically. Things aren't that fucking simple.

Now that I'm done angrily replying, I'm going to go and punch a kitten.....

~Yoh



'Keep it clean' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-12 01:08:41 CST
@ Yoh: Ok...all kidding aside. I haven't read the wall of text however...

post all the rants you want but keep it clean or post in a different show thread. So far all you come off as is an angry little kid.

Julie



'Fine, fine' by Yoh
Submitted on 2009-08-12 02:04:34 CST
Fair enough about the profanity thing, but that aside, I just find it irritating when I'm trying to have a rational discussion on particular topic, and everyone else seems to be out in la-la land.

Then I have to waste time rebutting nonsense that has nothing at all to do with what I"m talking about.

Again, the limitations of text rear their ugly head.

~Yoh



'Last Word' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-08-12 02:31:38 CST
Ok let me say this about that, and the last word I will say on the subject - if, as you say "everhyone else seems to be out in la-la land" including all the educated individuals who listen to and are guests on the show (including the creative director for mythic you were ready to blast) well...

it just seems to me that rather than everyone else in the world being out in "la-la land" that you are the one out in "la-la land" and to borrow a phrase from our esteemed colleague Daren Love...

Julie Out



'War and Peace, Yoh' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-08-12 19:19:06 CST
Here's hoping you overcome the "limitations of text," because if you want to contribute to the gaming industry you're going to have to learn to communicate your ideas in writing. And well, the "sentence enhancers," that's you're choice, but it's really not all that flattering or impactful. Just some (probably unwanted) advice.