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No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

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No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 37
Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:50:00 GMT [download/play]

Welcome to show 37!

This week we have short-shorts (the news type not nuns wearing
short-shorts) and we talk about the new Land of the Dead content in
Warhammer Online.

We also talk about gaming, Richard Bartle, blogging and anything else
that came to our minds with Saylah from Mystic Worlds and Tipa from
West Karana.

The land of the dead pictures we spoke about will be linked in the show thread.

Julie and Fran

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Episode 37 Discussion Thread

'Land of the Dead' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-30 22:36:36 CST
As promised here are the links to pictures from the Land of the Dead. If is interested in the full size pictures (say for a desk top) send a note to

'And what is more...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-30 22:41:24 CST
Having recently gone back to Warhammer for the last live event, as Fran and I discussed there have been some pleasant changes. After the show was edited (it took quite a few hours) I tried out a new Knight of the Blazing Sun. I can confirm what Keen said on our previous show about lower levels being active - at least on the Pheonix Throne server in the evening. It has been a long time since I stayed up until 1:00 am running scenarios but I had alot of fun.

I have read some comments on other sites that where disparaging about the artwork in War and the Land of the Dead. One quick peek at the pictures above will show all concerned just how wrong those comments are. Again, if anyone wants a picture big enough for the desktop (the hosting service I use limits the size of the picture) drop us a line and we will send you the full size pic.


'Really Enjoyed it...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-07-01 02:05:53 CST
Not because I was on the show, which was of course, as much fun as always, but because we get to her from one of my favorite bloggers. Tipa has a dry self-depricating wit that I find really funny, even when she's not attempting to be funny. Anyone who enjoys West Karana will enjoy hearing the woman behind the blog.

'It's magic' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-01 11:31:15 CST
Yes indeed, I will have to admit having Fran, myself, you and Tipa all on the same show was a bit of magic...and Tipa does indeed have a great sense of humor.

'I wish...' by Celestian
Submitted on 2009-07-01 16:17:55 CST
I wish I had enjoyed Warhammer as much as you seem to. I've been trying to force myself to play it to try out the new changes. Aside from my issues with advancement (renown and gear) I just can't seem to find much RVR anymore.

I'll get on, queue for all scenarios and then watch the maps for PVP. During a swap of LOTD there is a brief flurry of PVE keep swaps (because the other side has all went to LOTD) and then it's "wait around till it's our turn". After waiting a hour or so I'll log off in frustration.

I've played some LOTD and while it's not bad one of the things I was annoyed at is you have to re-glyph once you run the associated dungeon... seriously...??? WHY?

I'd rather oRVR than do any of this. Unfortunately since LOTD there is barely any at all. At least on PT/Order. Every now and then I'll get a few but at this point I'd rather log off and just go to CoD4 or some other FPS for some quick PVP... not sit around waiting endlessly for a single 20 minutes of fun.

'WAR is really going to be ass out...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-07-01 19:40:37 CST
If they're not able to solve the problem of players not being able to have reliable play sessions. Whether it's PVE, oRVR or Scenarios, you won't keep players if it's a constant wait to play situation. Unfortunately, collapsing servers to produce high player concentration per server doesn't seem viable because the game can't handle it. Having lots of players but then having to port people away won't be much better than what appears to be happening now. I'm reading they're still in between a rock and a hard place.

'RE: Saylah's post...' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-07-02 04:44:01 CST
I think Mythic needs to take a page out of Blizzard's playbook and make Scenarios be cross-server. This would add a lot more players to the pool.

'Let me say this about that...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-02 10:54:38 CST
"I'll get on, queue for all scenarios and then watch the maps for PVP. During a swap of LOTD there is a brief flurry of PVE keep swaps (because the other side has all went to LOTD) and then it's "wait around till it's our turn". After waiting a hour or so I'll log off in frustration." - Celestian

Often, in T4, my experience is similar to yours - perhaps this is why the devs at Mythic realize T4 needs to be worked on. If all goes well, we will have a chance to hear it from Paul Barnet on an upcoming show.

The magic formula for a bit of pvp action, and where my pleasant surprise T1. I found that if I logged on to my new Knight of the Blazing Sun (currently level 8 on the Phoenix Throne Server) in the evening around 6:30 to 7:00 pm central standard time that there is alot of pvp going on. The Nordland RvR lake usually has people in it and the scenarios come very fast.


'Theme music...' by blaktalon
Submitted on 2009-07-02 18:07:37 CST
Ok! Ok! I promise not to rag on the theme music again! Theres no need to break out the sharpened metal rulers... I'm fearing already, I promise!

A ruler-wielding-nun-fearing Blaktalon.

'Fear the ruler' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-02 18:29:30 CST
@ Blaktalon: As much as I would like to take credit for your fear, Fran thought up the new tag line long before your comment. The last show took about 35 hours total to edit and so took some time before it actually went live. On the other hand alot of different tracks (about 4) went into the mashup at the beginning...but hey...we stuck in a little rock and a bit of forties music in their as well.


'An afternoon with Paul Barnett' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-03 19:46:26 CST
It was our pleasure to get to spend a couple of hours with Paul Barnett this afternoon. That is, of course, alot of air time to edit and to broadcast. We will be releasing the air time as segments, starting with a segment about Warhammer.


'woot' by Token
Submitted on 2009-07-03 20:10:55 CST
Good timing. I just started playing for the first time on Dark Crag.

'Misconsceptions' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-04 02:49:36 CST
@Token...not trying to drop names or anything but as we discussed with Paul Barnett this afternoon, there are alot of misconceptions about what is and isn't going on in Warhammer Online. I will be the first to admit that things have changed. On Phoenix throne in Tier 1 in the evening there always seems to be a scenario to play in and most times Nordland has some RvR going on. And despite claims to the contrary I have yet to have the game crash on me even once in Tier 4.

'And what's more...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-05 18:45:53 CST
concerning Warhammer: It takes a big woman to admit when she's wrong...and believe me I am one BIG woman. Because two of our guests play on the Dark Crag server I "rolled up" a new character on Dark Crag: Inktomi if anyone cares to look me up. I was a bit hesitant to roll up on an rvr server. However...

Even early, early in the morning when all of the other servers said "low" this one said "medium" and Scenarios in Tier one where popping as fast as I could hit the button. Now maybe I am just one lucky broad, and I do feel I lead a charmed life of late, but things have changed in the lower Tiers.


'Hey!' by Charnel
Submitted on 2009-07-05 23:11:47 CST
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy the show :) Think I've been following this since like episode 5 or something, but haven't posted here yet. Keep making epic podcasts!

(Oh, and, my 19th birthday today. \o/)

'Happy Birthday Charnel' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-06 10:59:48 CST
Hi there Charnel. It's always a pleasure to hear from one of the listeners. And most importantly...


P.S. Show 38 coming up shortly. Most of it was recorded over the long more recording session to go.

'Nothing Has Changed...You Weren't Wrong' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-07-07 14:33:41 CST
WAR has been and continues to be by what you've said, population dependent in ways not encountered in other games. If you don't have player concentration in WAR there's nothing to do on all fronts of that game with the pure PVE (non PQs) being sparse and dull in comparison to other games.

You took the hit to re-roll on a more populated server to fix the problem but that's not a true fix. My characters are on Badlands where you were after having availed ourselves of the free xfers way back when Mythic was trying to address the problem by moving bodies themselves. At this point, there's no way I'd consider re-subbing to a game where to have fun I'd have to abandon a level 36 and 28 characters to re-roll on medium to high pop servers. Mythic should be offering free xfers if that's the fix.

Same problem, different day but with a re-roll on higher pop server solution. That's not a "change" in the game, and you weren't wrong. The entire game hinges on concentration of bodies across all tiers and aspects of game play to be enjoyable. If you hit the next tier and there are less players, you're right back where you were before.

'Saylah' by Token
Submitted on 2009-07-07 15:26:00 CST
To me, a new player starting out on a decent pop server, there is no problem. I have seen for myself that tiers 1 and 2 are buzzing and if you have a friend or 2 to play with you can take down the PQs.

For an example of a truly broken game i'd look to EVE online, a game that promises the galaxy and delivers a bunch of rocks.

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-07 16:30:34 CST
Let me say this about that at Saylah and Token...

Actually I still play on the badlands server. That hasn't changed. And certainly I am not claiming there isn't work to be done - in fact we talked with Paul Barnett this last weekend at length about Warhammer (two hours worth takes awhile to edit to my crazy standards). I didn't re-roll on a different server because I always had characters on the Phenoix Throne Server and Badlands server from day one. The difference is what time zone friends are loccated in...some are in the U.S. and some are in Australia.

Where I did re-roll was on the Dark Crag server but that had little to do with anything else other than a friend is playing on that server.

My reason for going back to Tier one was not because I felt I had to to get around problems. My reason for going back to tier one is to try out the new classes and I am still experimenting with which one I like the most.

Yes, I will be the first to admit that Fran and I harped on the Tier 4 issues for so long that a few of our listeners got tired of it.

But credit where credit is do. If you ask someone in the industry to fix the problem and they say "ok we will fix the problem" what more is there to ask? It takes time. Think of it this way. Show number 37 took 30 to 35 hours to edit, and that is just audio editing...watching a little sound wave go buy and making sure it sounds good. Imagine what a coder has to go through. Plus, as we talk about with Paul, and hopefully Scott Hartsman in the future, vision of what to do about a problem doesn't always match up with implementation.

Last recording session for show 38 is this evening - I will probably be done with editing by Wednesday. Show 38 editing process up to 8 hours and counting - fortunately Paul Barnett is ALOT easier to edit than any of our other guests or hosts (myself included).


'But Julie and Token...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-07-07 19:55:37 CST
You said in your post that part of the difference is the server's population. You were playing on a low pop server and could run naked and no action. Then you're on a higher pop server and...action. That's a fundamental flaw because of what this particular game is about. So players who were on med to high pop find themselves on low pop by no fault of their own, they can't control people leaving them game are screwed unless they re-roll did higher pop servers. This was always a problem and that hasn't changed.

I'm certainly interested in hearing Paul Barnett, it's not like I hold him personally accountable. But the fact still remains that this game is heavily dependent on population and they sub-divided it all over the place which only exacerbates the problem.

Token - you're only proving my issue. IF you're on a decent pop server no issues. However, server population isn't in control of the player. This is a game where everything is about interacting with others, more so than any other MMO I've played. And it didn't deliver on the promise because the content is too sub-divided and player density was an issue then and is still an issue now. I'd like to play WAR. I had fun. But I'm not re-sub'g to a game where if I'm on a low server I'm shit out of luck nor am I re-rolling to fix their problem.

'war' by Token
Submitted on 2009-07-07 20:15:31 CST
Playing on the wrong server has always been a problem, I rerolled for pop reasons in Daoc, EnB, PlanetSide, WoW, SWG and many more I'm sure. If I get that gloomy dead server feeling I leave my epics and re roll, what else can you do. If you hold out and get a free transfer then great, but I prefer to not be held back. After all, these games are meant to be fun to play. Get a new static group organised, find a friend you can introduce to the game, it's not so terrible to start over.

'And so it begins...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-07 22:10:06 CST
@ Saylah and the rest of humanity:


You know, it's funny that you point out that "I'm certainly interested in hearing Paul Barnett, it's not like I hold him personally accountable"...

...Because it seems that what I call the "unsilent minority" always does.

Also, as I mentioned before, I didn't re-roll for population reasons I just played a new class on the server I was already on. I rolled up on Dark Crag because a friend was had nothing to do with the population of the server. I would have rolled on that server if there was six people on it.

As for running through rvr zones naked, that was Tier 4 zones - see above statement, they're working on Tier 4. Also, recall on previous shows the discussion about being teleported away from combat zones because my highest level character was, until recently, level 31 (now level 35) - again see above statement about they are working on Tier 4.

As for your statement "But I'm not re-sub'g to a game where if I'm on a low server I'm shit out of luck nor am I re-rolling to fix their problem..." I will have to agree with Token and let me tell you a little story about that in the next post...

'Story time...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-07 22:24:22 CST


As some of the people who know me personally know, there are some places in this old world of ours where I have been subject to more than my share of bigotry. Long story short, one of the wait staff at my favorite lunchtime spot was very unkind to say the least. I am the sort of person now that would just let it go and move on (I guess I would make a good customer service rep now...and in fact I was once a gm).

But not so then. Those where the bad old days where I was ready to leap over the lunch counter at the person vowing never to return.

I talked to a good friend about it and they said, "make sure you aren't hurting yourself more than them."

The thing is I really, really liked this cafeteria that served oriental food (I lived in Asia for a year and a half). I avoided it for YEARS. Then one day, after finishing my noviate, I wandered back to the place. I was treated like royalty. Everyone was so nice. Now when I go back I don't even have to order, they just bring it to me.

In the end I only missed out on several years of my favorite lunches.

Did it hurt the cafeteria?

Nope. They were in business back then and still are.

So for the moral of the story let me turn to our good friend Token above:

"After all, these games are meant to be fun to play. Get a new static group organised, find a friend you can introduce to the game, it's not so terrible to start over." - Token

Characters I play most of the time in Warhammer (there are others):

Phoenix Throne:

Joandarq - level 8 Bright Knight
Vanhelseng - level 19 Witch Hunter

Dark Crag:

Inktomi - level 9 Black Guard


Inktomi Nohealzforu - level 35 Shaman (be nice to me and I will even heal you!)

'The Problem with that theory is...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-07-08 01:40:25 CST
That if you lose your static group, as I have in WAR in the past, you're back to facing the same problem. That's not a fix and no, I didn't enjoy WAR enough to re-roll so I'm not missing out on anything. It's a sub after all. I'd be paying them for the privilege of re-creating characters I already had and enjoyed playing, until things went dead. I'm not interested in other classes so I'll pass on paying to re-roll. And walls of text don't change the fact that there hasn't been a fix for the reason I unsubscribed - dead air on the server they transferred us to, to get away from the dead air on the server where we started, which had been high pop but went silent.

We can agree to disagree, I love you all the same.

'I love you too...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-08 03:07:27 CST

I love you too.

'Paul Barnett Interviews' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-08 03:26:32 CST
All of the Paul Barnett interviews are now edited and they will appear in the following order over the next three shows:

1.) Paul Barnett on Warhammer
2.) Paul Barnett on Understanding the Industry
3.) Paul Barnett on Lilfe, the Universe, and Man-dolls

After listening to the second interview and reading the comments above I have come to the conclusion that Abraham LIncoln was wrong:

1. You can't please some of the people all of the time - someone will always be pissed off no matter what you say or do.

2. You can please all of the people some of the time - but whenever the person you pleased some of the time is happy, someone else will be pissed off because of it and...

3.) You can never please all of the please all of the people all of the time...this he was at least right about. However I think W.C. Fields said it best...

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again - then quit. Don't be a damn fool about it." - W.C. Fields

'try again then quit' by Token
Submitted on 2009-07-08 06:17:51 CST
This game has really surprised me and I love playing it, but then I'm a PvP nut. Cant wait to hear what Paul has to say.

Jeandarc - Warrior Priest - Dark Crag Tier 2
HildeVonKrone - Knight - Dark Crag Tier 1

'PvP nut...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-08 08:04:05 CST
@ token:

I enjoy the pvp aspects of the game as well. In fact, this is the first time I have skipped the pve aspects of the game altogether and much to my surprise I went through tier one like lightening - Kind of sad really because I was in a warband chasing destruction across the pairings as I was about to chicken. Oh well...on to tier two.

Unfortunately your characters on Dark Crag are all character there is destruction. So I guess I will see you across the battlefield/


'A new show segment' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-08 17:43:52 CST
As we finish up the next show (recording one more segment today about Aion) we have been thinking about all the comments both pro and con we have received about Warhammer Online. This is, of course, not particular to this game. With each game we discuss, no matter what stance we take on it we seem to upset someone.

Now mind you, this doesn't upset us. There is an old expression that says "if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen" and personally I have a flame proof kitchen.

So we would like to have a round table..."discussion" each show featuring a particular game or issue. People can sound off about it on both sides of the game or issue. The first segment we will be recording, if the initial invitation is accepted which has already gone out, will be Warhammer Online.

So if you have a game or an issue about a game you would like to defend let us know and we will have a segment about it.

As Grandma used to say, "Lets run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes it."


'Re: General thoughts on WAR' by Steven
Submitted on 2009-07-09 15:47:24 CST

I enjoyed WAR at launch and then with each progressive Tier I found myself liking it less and less. Much like Saylah experienced, a variety of population issues had too much of a negative impact on the game. So, I haven't played for quite a while, but I'm keeping my eye on the title and really enjoy reading threads like this one to see the 'state of the game' from several points of view.

So far I haven't seen enough changes that lead me to believe it will be saved from the MMO bugzapper, but maybe it has enough players to be a reasonable niche title if EA/Mythic can afford it. It's really hard to turn an MMO around after it stumbles for a long stretch of time as WAR has. It had such a great early feel and potential until the linear world, population issues, balance issues, etc. left me looking for something else.

For now I've been enjoying Aion which doesn't have a whole lot of "new" within it, but it's fun and I'm really looking forward to see how their PvPvE works out along with stigmas and dungeons.

Thanks for the awesome podcasts!

'Awesome podcasts' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-09 18:07:52 CST
Thanks for the compliment - we try and compliments are what keep us going. As for Warhammer, I know it isn't every persons cup of tea. I can only relate my own exprience and that is I have started out in Tier one in several new servers - including finally rolling up a slayer (I know, I know). I played throughout the day yesteday and always found a scenario going. In fact last night they popped so fast i couldn't even walk more than a few yards outside the warcamp each time before it started.


p.s. We will be recording our first "High Noon" this Saturday.

'Awesome podcasts' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-09 18:52:33 CST
Thanks for the compliment - we try and compliments are what keep us going. As for Warhammer, I know it isn't every persons cup of tea. I can only relate my own exprience and that is I have started out in Tier one in several new servers - including finally rolling up a slayer (I know, I know). I played throughout the day yesteday and always found a scenario going. In fact last night they popped so fast i couldn't even walk more than a few yards outside the warcamp each time before it started.


p.s. We will be recording our first "High Noon" this Saturday.

'Show uploaded' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-07-12 20:39:08 CST
Thanks for being patient dear listeners. Paul Barnett spoke to us for two hours and that was alot of time to edit. The first of three shows with Paul Barnett as a guest has been uploaded and should be available shortly. The interviews will be in three parts over the next three shows as follows:

Part One - Paul Barnett talks about Warhammer Online
Part Two - Paul Barnett talks about Understanding the Industry
Part Three - Paul Barnett on life, the universe, and man dolls\