To post comments, please login.

No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

Subscribe via iTunes  Subscribe to RSS Feed  
Related site:

This Podcast Sponsored by:

Help the Collective. Become a supporter or sponsor on the Support Page.
No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 33
Wed, 20 May 2009 13:59:00 GMT [download/play]

Welcome to Wormhole Extreme!
This week we have another guest. Join us as we talk about faction warfare, wormholes and more. Upcoming shows will include guests Saylah from Mystic Worlds and Tipa from West Karana.

Login to post a comment
Previous Episodes
Episode #140 - Duration: 01:17:51 - Released: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 11:25:27 +0000
Episode #139 - Duration: 52:46 - Released: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:06:13 +0000
Episode #138 - Duration: 01:00:56 - Released: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 12:15:36 +0000
Episode #137 - Duration: 59:57 - Released: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:19:34 +0000
Episode #136 - Duration: 01:03:44 - Released: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:28:48 +0000
Episode #135 - Duration: 01:03:24 - Released: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:02:23 +0000
Episode #134 - Duration: 49:16 - Released: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 12:25:58 +0000
Episode #133 - Duration: 46:19 - Released: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 10:48:44 +0000
Episode #132 - Duration: 01:10:48 - Released: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:59:10 +0000
Episode #131 - Duration: 01:05:24 - Released: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 04:24:19 +0000
Episode #130 - Duration: 01:08:46 - Released: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:01:51 +0000
Episode #129 - Duration: 50:45 - Released: Tue, 28 May 2013 04:46:24 +0000
Episode #128 - Duration: 50:32 - Released: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:48:35 +0000
Episode #127 - Duration: 54:10 - Released: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 20:13:28 +0000
Episode #126 - Duration: 01:04:19 - Released: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 11:02:32 +0000
Episode #125 - Duration: 01:09:21 - Released: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 12:21:24 +0000
Episode #124 - Duration: 55:15 - Released: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 05:36:34 +0000
Episode #123 - Duration: 45:57 - Released: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 21:38:07 +0000
Episode #122 - Duration: 47:43 - Released: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:41:18 +0000
Episode #121 - Duration: 01:03:31 - Released: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:58:54 +0000
Episode #120 - Duration: 43:46 - Released: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:17:50 +0000
Episode #119 - Duration: 01:11:30 - Released: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 11:20:56 +0000
Episode #118 - Duration: 01:07:42 - Released: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 11:13:49 +0000
Episode #117 - Duration: 59:29 - Released: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:15:51 +0000
Episode #116 - Duration: 53:31 - Released: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:44:41 +0000
Episode #114 - Duration: 1:10:17 - Released: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:29:15 +0000
Episode #1138 - Duration: 1:02:14 - Released: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 11:18:52 +0000
Episode #112 - Duration: 48:20 - Released: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 11:03:26 +0000
Episode #111 - Duration: 43:38 - Released: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 02:51:50 +0000
Episode #110 - Duration: 1:13:01 - Released: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:30:47 +0000
Episode #109 - Duration: 40:50 - Released: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 10:55:10 +0000
Episode #108 - Duration: 1:01:22 - Released: Tue, 15 May 2012 11:47:48 +0000
Episode #107 - Duration: 55:48 - Released: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:23:29 +0000
Episode #106 - Duration: 1:03:19 - Released: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 03:09:29 +0000
Episode #105 - Duration: 1:01:12 - Released: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:04:35 +0000
Episode #104 - Duration: 54:14 - Released: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 12:08:10 +0000
Episode #103 - Duration: 57:04 - Released: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:51:00 +0000
Episode #102 - Duration: 56:33 - Released: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:03:00 +0000
Episode #101 - Duration: 1:08:46 - Released: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:29:00 +0000
Episode #100 - Duration: 2:08:04 - Released: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:31:00 +0000
Episode #99 - Duration: 1:02:59 - Released: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 00:22:00 +0000
Episode #98 - Duration: 50:40 - Released: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 04:45:00 +0000
Episode #97 - Duration: 2550 - Released: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:28:00 +0000
Episode #96 - Duration: 3271 - Released: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 03:34:00 +0000
Episode #95 - Duration: 2577 - Released: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 02:37:00 +0000
Episode #94 - Duration: 3457 - Released: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:16:49 +0000
Episode #93 - Duration: 3405 - Released: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 03:59:00 +0000
Episode #92 - Duration: 3038 - Released: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:46:05 +0000
Episode #91 - Duration: 2904 - Released: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 04:29:45 +0000
Episode #90 - Duration: 3467 - Released: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:55:00 +0000
Episode #89 - Duration: 3377 - Released: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:06:45 +0000
Episode #88 - Duration: 3835 - Released: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 03:07:12 +0000
Episode #87 - Duration: 2135 - Released: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 04:35:51 +0000
Episode #86 - Duration: 2666 - Released: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:34:00 +0000
Episode #85 - Duration: 2039 - Released: Sun, 15 May 2011 19:41:01 +0000
Episode #84 - Duration: 3297 - Released: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:34:37 +0000
Episode #83 - Duration: 3722 - Released: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 10:52:24 +0000
Episode #82 - Duration: 3596 - Released: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 13:57:57 +0000
Episode #81 - Duration: 3497 - Released: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:11:59 +0000
Episode #80 - Duration: 3274 - Released: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:54:28 +0000
Episode #79 - Duration: 4441 - Released: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 12:04:11 +0000
Episode #78 - Duration: 4264 - Released: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 12:33:37 +0000
Episode #77 - Duration: 3421 - Released: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:44:59 +0000
Episode #76 - Duration: 3976 - Released: Tue, 07 Dec 2010 12:08:03 +0000
Episode #75 - Duration: 4898 - Released: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 05:18:39 +0000
Episode #74 - Duration: 4191 - Released: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 03:14:16 +0000
Episode #73 - Duration: 3675 - Released: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:38:51 +0000
Episode #72 - Duration: 3918 - Released: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 04:21:55 +0000
Episode #71 - Duration: 3120 - Released: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 13:23:26 +0000
Episode #70 - Duration: 3614 - Released: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 05:34:03 +0000
Episode #69 - Duration: 4179 - Released: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 14:25:51 +0000
Episode #68 - Duration: 00:52:00 - Released: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:42:00 GMT
Episode #67 - Duration: 00:59:57 - Released: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:40:00 GMT
Episode #66 - Duration: 00:47:41 - Released: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:37:00 GMT
Episode #65 - Duration: 01:05:18 - Released: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:06:00 GMT
Episode #64 - Duration: 01:10:13 - Released: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:50:00 GMT
Episode #63 - Duration: 01:41:28 - Released: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:17:00 GMT
Episode #62 - Duration: 01:20:03 - Released: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:05:00 GMT
Episode #61 - Duration: 01:22:30 - Released: Thu, 27 May 2010 01:32:00 GMT
Episode #60 - Duration: 00:49:17 - Released: Sat, 15 May 2010 03:00:00 GMT
Episode #59 - Duration: 00:57:38 - Released: Sat, 15 May 2010 01:37:00 GMT
Episode #58 - Duration: 01:28:20 - Released: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 23:07:00 GMT
Episode #57 - Duration: 00:51:17 - Released: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 01:11:00 GMT
Episode #56 - Duration: 01:07:58 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:24:00 GMT
Episode #55 - Duration: 01:00:11 - Released: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:18:00 GMT
Episode #54 - Duration: 01:39:48 - Released: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:37:00 GMT
Episode #53.5 - Duration: 00:38:40 - Released: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:30:00 GMT
Episode #53 - Duration: 01:54:18 - Released: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:09:00 GMT
Episode #52 - Duration: 00:49:48 - Released: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 04:05:00 GMT
Episode #51 - Duration: 01:05:47 - Released: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 06:37:00 GMT
Episode #50 - Duration: 01:48:45 - Released: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 23:49:00 GMT
Episode #49 - Duration: 01:19:11 - Released: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:51:00 GMT
Episode #48 - Duration: 01:19:37 - Released: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:58:00 GMT
Episode #47 - Duration: 02:33:00 - Released: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:26:00 GMT
Episode #46 - Duration: 01:41:05 - Released: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:12:00 GMT
Episode #45 - Duration: 01:05:26 - Released: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:04:00 GMT
Episode #44 - Duration: 01:11:24 - Released: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:44:00 GMT
Episode #43 - Duration: 01:26:14 - Released: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 21:14:00 GMT
Episode #42 - Duration: 01:08:34 - Released: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 03:32:00 GMT
Episode #41 - Duration: 01:27:57 - Released: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:14:00 GMT
Episode #40 - Duration: 01:25:04 - Released: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 16:57:00 GMT
Episode #39 - Duration: 01:41:33 - Released: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:09:00 GMT
Episode #38 - Duration: 01:38:07 - Released: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:45:00 GMT
Episode #37 - Duration: 01:25:59 - Released: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:50:00 GMT
Episode #36 - Duration: 01:57:23 - Released: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:53:00 GMT
Episode #35 - Duration: 01:10:01 - Released: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:49:00 GMT
Episode #34 - Duration: 00:36:12 - Released: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:25:00 GMT
Episode #33 - Duration: 01:02:22 - Released: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:59:00 GMT
Episode #32 - Duration: 00:59:49 - Released: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:32:00 GMT
Episode #31 - Duration: 00:45:56 - Released: Thu, 7 May 2009 20:22:00 GMT
Episode #30 - Duration: 01:03:46 - Released: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 06:05:00 GMT
Episode #29 - Duration: 01:01:53 - Released: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:32:00 GMT
Episode #28 - Duration: 01:31:39 - Released: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:20:00 GMT
Episode #27 - Duration: 00:54:35 - Released: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 02:56:00 GMT
Episode #26 - Duration: 01:30:33 - Released: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:24:00 GMT
Episode #25 - Duration: 01:03:00 - Released: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:08:00 GMT
Episode #24.1 - Duration: 00:17:10 - Released: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 06:36:00 GMT
Episode #24 - Duration: 01:56:46 - Released: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:46:00 GMT
Episode #23.2 - Duration: 00:09:11 - Released: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:59:00 GMT
Episode #23.1 - Duration: 00:17:23 - Released: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:20:00 GMT
Episode #23 - Duration: 01:18:41 - Released: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:39:00 GMT
Episode #22 - Duration: 01:02:03 - Released: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:33:00 GMT
Episode #21 - Duration: 00:57:58 - Released: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:42:00 GMT
Episode #20 - Duration: 01:18:18 - Released: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:53:00 GMT
Episode #19 - Duration: 01:10:32 - Released: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:58:00 GMT
Episode #18 - Duration: 01:33:16 - Released: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:18:00 GMT
Episode #17 - Duration: 00:53:13 - Released: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:24:00 GMT
Episode #16 - Duration: 00:38:14 - Released: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:41:00 GMT
Episode #15 - Duration: - Released: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:32:00 GMT
Episode #14 - Duration: 01:05:19 - Released: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:49:00 GMT
Episode #13 - Duration: 00:51:20 - Released: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:30:00 GMT
Episode #12 - Duration: 01:34:17 - Released: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:12:00 GMT
Episode #11 - Duration: 01:23:55 - Released: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 20:15:00 GMT
Episode #10 - Duration: 01:01:52 - Released: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:45:00 GMT
Episode #9 - Duration: 01:07:49 - Released: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:59:00 GMT
Episode #8 - Duration: 01:11:05 - Released: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:14:00 GMT
Episode #7 - Duration: 00:57:01 - Released: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:57:00 GMT
Episode #6 - Duration: 01:33:27 - Released: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:10:00 GMT
Episode #5 - Duration: 01:09:49 - Released: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:58:00 GMT
Episode #4 - Duration: 01:01:01 - Released: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:55:00 GMT
Episode #3 - Duration: 00:51:14 - Released: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:45:00 GMT
Episode #2 - Duration: 00:32:15 - Released: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:00:00 GMT
Episode #1 - Duration: 00:19:19 - Released: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 23:19:00 GMT

Episode 33 Discussion Thread

'Great Intro to FW' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-05-21 04:40:13 CST
My foray into FW has gotten a little stalled by rl activities but I still planning on joining. That was a great introduction to how things work. For all the essentially FFA PVP and politics in EVE, the player-base remains very welcoming and helpful. Sure, they love to trash talk and will blow your ass up in a heart beat if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time but they are welcoming to new players.

Anytime I've posted on my blog about needing help or advise related to EVE I get comments, email and in-game mail from people willing to help out. Letrange for example saw my posts about wanting to join and the ship I was going to use. He then went and manufactured 10 of those ships for me, including the fittings I'd planned AND ammo! Wow, just wow. I will in the near future make use of the gift when I have more time.

'Let me say this about that...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-21 14:42:02 CST
What does keep people away from Eve Online in some cases are all of the people who prey on other players in low sec. Unfortunately a very large death penalty as Eve Online has, coupled with pvp that isn't always consensual makes for a very bad combination.

It also doesn't help that traditionally CCP sees some of the scams that players come up with and simply shrug their shoulders and say "that's all part of the game". Players get away with scamming other players in Eve Online that would get them banned in most other games. Wtih games like Jumpgate Evolution due out this year and Star Trek Online due out next year I believe CCP will have to do some major rethinking of their policies along those lines in the near future - I wrote an article about this which will come out in the future and we will discuss it on an upcoming show.

'In the mean time...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-21 14:43:00 CST
In the mean time, we have three other shows we are working on at the moment for future release. We are also working on having our first "call in" show which will take place on a Saturday afternoon.


'Scams' by Tron
Submitted on 2009-05-21 21:05:05 CST
I'm a fairly new EVE player but something about me likes the often underhanded things some players will do to get ahead. Scams and piracy for me are part of the draw to New Eden. That isn't to say that I enjoy picking on peoples weakness. I don't scam anyone at all, but I appreciate those who do. I feel that a player trying to scam me provides game content that I may enjoy. Much like an adversary trying to blow up my ship provides a challenge. I've taken on the mining route as a beginner and some of the most fun I've had has come in the form of trying to outsmart can flippers.
I feel that with some of this competition on the horizon CCP would be smart to stick to their established system because that is really what EVE provides it's players, the spaceships are just a medium. Of course take that with a grain of salt because I'm a total newbie.

I loved the show and I look forward to your article sister.

'Scams in eve' by CjDidge
Submitted on 2009-05-21 22:22:06 CST
What really bothers me about scams in eve, is not the fact that they exist, its the fact that the are spammed into the local chat channel for 23 hr's straight which must be macro driven, which to my knowledge is against the eula. Those accounts should be banned.

'Hate to Disagree Julie' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-05-22 01:17:30 CST
Actually, I don't think they will have to do anything. CCP employees involved in non-sense needs to be kept under control but as for the player behavior, it's a no holds barred game. I don't think they are trying to be the higher pop more general appeal sci-fi MMO or they could have taken steps toward that a long time ago.

I hope JumpGate does well for that company and players who are more interested in that flavor of sci-fi MMO. It's the everything goes that keeps the drama in EVE Online which is what interests many players. If the other games are more controlled, they won't have intrigue on that level which is fine. While I think both games will have a intersection of players, the more "hardcore" as a general term will be fine staying in EVE.

CCP has taken big steps to make the introduction to the game more palatable but they have NOT pulled back from the very detailed, players run everything concept and quite frankly, I don't think they will.

I didnt even think about the scams. Perhaps I'm hardened to the situation even though I'm still a noob in time played. I've never been scammed and I hardly notice the crap in chat. Then again, i keep to myself mostly or a very small group of players at any given time when I'm subscribed.

'Scams and PvP' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-22 14:35:59 CST
In regards to scams, it is easy to be complacent about them until someone scams your corporation out of capital ships that it took alot of players alot of real world time doing very boring activities to make. It is easy for the new player to be complacent about scams until the first time they unknowingly accept a free form contract and get scammed out of the first 20 million isk it took them forever to make. On a larger scale there have been players that have scammed other players out of assets with real world value in the thousands of dollars - when it reaches that point the perpetrator of the scam should be referred for criminal charges.

No matter what the excuse, in my book a thief is a thief.

In regards to pvp, while it was interesting to learn about faction warfare, it has given me pause to rethink my original standpoint on an earlier article I wrote for Virgin Worlds. I think back on my Seein' Red article I wrote in reaction to Brent's article in reaction to Warhammer Online (the one I call the "article heard 'round the virtual world") - and I consider the pvp we discussed on the last show and my own experiences when it comes to "war declaration." Part of the problem, as I mentioned before, is that PvP in eve is not always voluntary. It also reaches the point where it is very, VERY excessive. With insurance costing one third the cost of the ship you fly and tech 2 ships only being able to be insured for a small fraction of their costs (and expensive tech 2 modules not at all) the pvp costs is TOO high.

The typical response is to shrug and say "don't fly what you can't afford to lose." But that is far too simplistic and rarely entirely possible.

'EVE PVP is Scary' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-05-22 18:02:22 CST
I agree that PVP is a scary place in EVE Online. I always find myself laughing at people calling themselves hardcore PVPers where the worst penalty is downtime and some gear depreciation. Even full corpse looting doesn't equate the the very real consequences of EVE's brand of PVP. I'm sure it contributes to the fact that only a small percentage of the player-base is in low sec risking life, ship and clone to the FFA nature of PVP in EVE.

However, I'm not convinced this particular player base wants anything different. Faction Warfare seems to have cooled off very quickly. People went back to do whatever they do in EVE and I don't really see much of a ruckus over it. Does that mean more players wouldn't engage in PVP if it were less costly - less punishing? I'm sure they would but that wouldn't be EVE. The minute you lower the penalty or provide too much of a controlled environment like a BG or Arena, you rob the fundamentals of this particular game. I'm not convinced it would work without rippling across the game in negatives ways. I suspect CCP doesn't think so either which is why they've never gone very hard in that direction.

You have EQ2, LOTR and WOW for your top fantasy subscription MMOs. The level of difficulty and risk for their PVP implementations vary. I think we'll find the same with the sci-fi MMOs. EVE will sit more in the sandbox hardcore hold-yer-ballz and pray for the best type of PVP and one of the others maybe more WOW-like when it comes to PVP risk. It's not wrong. It's just different. I'm not convinced CCP needs to do anything about it or if their core player base wants anything to be done about it. I read EVE blogs and I'm not seeing an outcry for PVP with much less risk.

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-22 18:46:59 CST
It seems that in Eve ONline there has been alot fewer people in low sec and alot more people in high sec. Faction warfare seems to have been an effort to get people to pvp in Eve Online. The penalty for death in faction warfare is just as harsh as it is for any other sort of pvp. If faction warfare has not been the success that CCP thought it was it seems that the lack of participation was due to the factor that those same factors that made people resist involvement in pvp has not changed.

In the end no one, not even the devs at ccp can speak for "the entire player base." Any indication of what the player base may or may not want is a guess at best and a desperate hope at worst.

What I consider is that the majority of participation in Eve Online seems to be pve related. If that is so it seems some of the offering in "space" that are in the near future will do space related pve better. In the very least they will have to make good on their "walking in stations" promises that seem to have become vaporware.

'And another thing...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-22 18:51:30 CST
When I see other developers begin to adopt the attitude that Activision/Blizzard takes - the whole "take it or leave it" attitude - it seems that those same devs are entering very dangerous territory. While I do understand that a dev needs to believe in what they are doing, as Colin Campbell said in a recent interview on the show, they also need to listen to the players.

We originally saw Mythic refuse to have official forums - that changed.

In recent months more than once we have seen game companies adopt a "take it or leave it" attitude only to find the player base leave it. While it is fantastic that there are people, .like John Smedley, who say "as long as the game pays to keep the servers open the game will stay open" more and more we are seeing niche games that are NOT able to keep the servers open.

'EvE and the apearance of heavy PvP consequences' by Letrange
Submitted on 2009-05-22 19:47:21 CST
Thought I would inject my comments here. One of the thing I that I think a lot of people get wrong about EVE is the "death consequences". But let's put things in perspective, In a PVE game like WoW raiders can spend a week or two raiding a single raid to a) get it and b) get gear from it so that they can improve their collective stats to move on to tougher raids. Since only a few of the most valuable stuff drop every raid, it takes repeated attempts to get the right equipment for all those who need it. And there is no reason to every use less than the best you can afford to use since you can't loose the item unless you throw it away.

In EVE however once you get past certain levels of skill/standing/situation, you suddenly have access to MUCH improved cash flow. Solid alliances down in 0.0 space that are able to fully exploit their space have surreal cash flows. It takes a while to kick in but when it does it's very much easier to throw away battleships by the boatloads like they do in full court press battles like the ones in 0.0.

The problem new players run into is that they lack the necessary feel and restraint for what ships to use when PvP'ing. So they go with their other gaming experiences which are screaming at them: BIGGER IS BETTER. When in reality EvE works by the rule: BIGGER IS EASIER CATCH AND TO HIT. So you end up with experienced players who will only touch bigger ships when both their budget and their skills indicate they should and newbies who are trying to get into the biggest ship they can even if they don't have the skills to use the correct guns. Its like watching a wounded deer trying to wade thru a stream full of piranas.

This is not to say that senior pilots don't fly bigger ships - they do, but by the time they do, they know how to fit and use them to the fullest of their skills and understand their place on the battlefield and usually their financial situation is such that they can afford to throw them around like frigates.

So the thing is that most of the pilots who PvP constantly either thru their corp or their personal income situation (in game) can afford the loss rates they tend to incur. For these people the consequences of PvP is something they have budgeted for and can sustain. They also have enough experience to a) make sure they don't drop below certain levels before switching off to isk making endeavors.

The thing is that once you know things and have skills it's VERY quick to pull yourself out of a financial hole in EVE. Even rather large ones. The point here is that although yes the price you pay is rather high on any loss (and much higher for the good stuff), your ability to replace all those losses is also commensurate. This means that if you PvP within your means, it's actually very affordable.

As for scams and stuff. Well EVE is supposed to be a dark and dangerous world setting. Its capitalism and gunboat diplomacy gone berserk. With spies and shady characters abounding. The fact that the most notorious and dastardly pilots are usually other players only points out that truth is stranger than fiction. Common street smarts are all that's needed to avoid 99% of the problems. And remember - it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. The trick here is to pay attention in all your dealings. Always assume your corp/alliance is infiltrated. Operate accordingly.

One of the great things about moving out to 0.0 (or wormhole space) is that not only do your opponents but yourself operate under less restrictions. This is one of the reasons my industrialists are slowly coming around to the "real EVE". It's the sudden realization that although you can get ganked in wormhole space - if you keep your wits about you you can turn tables on your stalker and with organization and skill the hunter can become the prey.

'Some points here...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-22 20:02:13 CST
@ Letrange: "In EVE however once you get past certain levels of skill/standing/situation, you suddenly have access to MUCH improved cash flow. Solid alliances down in 0.0 space that are able to fully exploit their space have surreal cash flows."

What this constitutes is a barrier to entry - a game where only the well established veteran players get to have fun. The problem becomes in a game that caters only to veteran players is that, unless your name happens to be "Blizzard Entertainment" the game takes a big risk of stagnating and dieing out once serious competition comes along. Up until now, eve online has not faced serious competition - up until now.

"As for scams and stuff. Well EVE is supposed to be a dark and dangerous world setting. Its capitalism and gunboat diplomacy gone berserk." - Letrange.

The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how thick are the rose colored glasses through which one looks at the issue, as I said before, I thief is a thief. Common street smarts are not all that it is needed - what is needed is a more responsible attitutude on behalf of ccp.

'Perception and Perspective' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-05-23 02:11:47 CST
I suppose it comes down to perspective, perception and preferences. The things you've mention aren't the things that have ever concerned or bothered me about EVE and I'm a noob that can't complete with veteran players. I was all for FW as some way of allow new players the ability to start PVP earlier but I don't think pre-subscribed, ruled or boxed in PVP works in a game like EVE. So as a player, I just mosey on about doing what it is I like to do in EVE. The rest rarely bothers me but offers exciting sideline stories and articles to read. :-)

'Only the vets have fun? I think not !!!' by CozmikR5
Submitted on 2009-05-25 05:13:48 CST
Yes EVE is daunting. Yes EVE is complicated. Yes EVE is deep. Yes you can fall flat on your face if you spend too much ISK in a ship you can barely fly, or if you fall prey to one of the scammers who sold you a regular Tech 2 Microwarp Drive for 200 million ISK. But to say that only veterans get to have fun in EVE could not be farther from the truth. I entered New Eden with only one thing on my mind: PvP. Anything else in EVE will bore me to tears. So after a lot of research and reading guides I entered the game fully prepared with the knowledge that it would take some time before I could fly or afford to fly the ships in my playing style, but that never stopped me from joining gangs in my tiny and often overlooked Tech 1 frigate and learning the trade of the PvP pilot with an experienced PvP alliance, as a 3-week old character I might add.

My point is this: if you think you get get around and play EVE solo, your experience will be very poor. EVE is about getting together with other pilots in the true sense of massively multiplayer. If you do not ask for help, you will not get any.

And about crying about the fact that there are scammers, pirates, can-flippers, and all-around bad guys in EVE, you can forget about CCP putting a clamp on such activities; CCP actually wants things that way. If you want "safe" or "consensual" PvP, then EVE is clearly not the game for you. EVE is about space being a cold and dangerous place, and when you know that from the start, and accept the fact that you will die (repeatedly) and that there are no magic ships that don't die, and when you dive in head-first knowing that EVE is a harsh environment, THEN you can appreciate its beauty and vastness.

'Big difference' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-25 14:09:13 CST
@CozmikR5: More often then not the people who most adequately defend scammers are the ones perpetrating the fraud themselves. As an example, as I just saw happen this week, one player stole the first 20 million isk that another player made by using a "free form" contract. For those not acquainted with Eve Online this means a contract that is not structured in such a manner as it spells out what is being given and received.

Let me be blunt: this is not a "feature" of the game. This does not make space a wild and wonderful place. This does not make the game attractive to anyone else but the thief who stole from another player. The player who lost the isk is just as much a victim as someone who was robbed in a dark alley, and the scammer who stole the virtual currency as much a thief as if he or she walked in to a store and held it up with a gun.

A thief is a thief and no amount of semantics will change that. This is NOT the same as corporatae intrigue.

Plus the whole "clearly this is not the game for you" is the same sort of bullshit that I see one player heap on another merely because they dont agree with their outlook on the game.

I see this same sort of garbage in real life form politicians who say "I don't think you understand all the issues."

'Good Marketing' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-25 14:21:16 CST
And while I am on a role...another thought. While I appreciate the thought that Mr. Colin Campbell express on a prior show that a developer must believe in their product...

We have seen games close up their doors more frequently in the last year or so. It is especially true in tough economic times that any developer must also be a businesman or businesswoman, like it or not. Some developers, like John Smedly, reach out to new markets (the younger gamers) and new business models (micro-transactions) but no matter what happens the developer must keep in mind market. The primary point in marketing is not what the person producing the product wants but what the consumer of the product wants.

That's just good marketing.

'CCP and Scams' by CozmikR5
Submitted on 2009-05-26 04:13:18 CST
Well, I guess CCP believes in scamming then because after 6 years I'm sure they had all the time they needed to put a clamp on it if they wanted. Now why they haven't done it is beyond me; I hate scammers as much as the next guy/gal.

The install program should have a window that pops up saying "WARNING! EVE Online is basically a deep lake that has piranhas, electric eels, great white sharks, crocodiles, and a few schools of barracudas, but it has gold at the bottom. Do you want to swim?". I guess I'm one of the crazies that clicked "Yes" :)

The main problem is that the NPC game and the Real People game are so completely different that even if they improve things like the tutorial and missions, it just does not prepare the new player for the interaction, peaceful or not, with the other players.

'Generic Post title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-05-26 13:48:07 CST
@ CozmikR5: Oversimplifications and Grandsweeping generalizations will not make player scams a "feature of the game" just because you want it to be that way. Suggesting the game has a pop up that says "Warning Eve Online is basicalloly a deep lake t hat has piranhas...etc" is little more than a hysterial reaction boarding on the juvenile response "and so is your mother."

Wake up and smell the coffee, as dear departed mother used to say. Eve Online has alot of really great people playing it - I am one of them. This does not, however, change the fact that cheating another player still makes a player a thief. And, as you may have noticed from the last patch, CCP DOES do something about player scams.

In the end, as the immortal bard used to say...

"methinks thou doest protest too much"

'Another great podcast' by Lostinspace
Submitted on 2009-05-29 07:00:57 CST
A most inspiring show indeed. Memories of mining and never quite figuring out the manufacturing side - I do remember emdless podding but an oh-so-beautiful environment to look at as you headed back to base - I was in the Eve beta and so impressed I went and bought the box... (yes the original Simon and Schuster one!!). I never went on to actually play the production Eve, I chose Star Wars Galaxies instead - so my Eve box has remained on the shelf with the CD key unused for many years! Hmmm - after listening to this, I may have to actually break down and get the game. I really dislike the optimal-template, uber-gear, twitch n script PvP found in other MMOs but grand strategy sounds like my cup of tea :)


'Sledge Hammer' by McBruce
Submitted on 2009-06-01 16:23:02 CST
Slightly off topic and derailing, but...

I was streaming music via Yahoo Launchcast this morning and 'Sledgehammer' came up. For the first second I thought to myself, there isn't a new episode of NPNM up yet this week is there?
Wait how is NPNM streaming on Yahoo?
Oh, wait, never mind.

After the momentary pang of disappointment that it wasn't a new NPNM I got a nice chuckle out of it and decided to pass it on.

-Doc McBruce

'New Show' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-01 17:45:14 CST
@ McBruce: In fact we uploaded the most recent show early this morning. While there was another show that we could have uploaded, we have been working on a memorial day special show for some time - and it has taken quite a bit of editing. As to intro music, you may have noticed that we haven't used the sledgehammer (or rather a mashed up version of it, sticking together parts of the beginning and end). Instead we have switched to themes centered on the show. The next show starts with a short clip from an Andrews Sisters song.

@ Lost in space: I am glad you enjoyed the show - we seemed to have stirred up the eve online pot a bit, but thats what we do best.

'Protesting indeed...' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2009-06-01 20:36:24 CST
"methinks thou doest protest too much"

That is a phrase that cuts both ways coming from somebody that is complaining so loudly about the game. And to throw out the idea that if you defend the way EVE works now then you must be one of the scammers is exactly the sort of twaddle that politicians, about whom you also complain, love to toss out.

EVE is what it is and it serves a fan base that would pack up and leave if the happy and safe "nobody gets scammed, nobody gets hurt" world that you seem to be proposing were implemented. Are you suggesting that CCP essentially betray their current, loyal, and still growing customer base in pursuit of... well... I don't know? Something about changing horses mid-stream comes to mind though.

EVE isn't for everybody. No game is. But if it were as bad as you were selling it, I am pretty sure subscriptions would be sinking not growing.

'Hell hath no fury like....' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-02 12:25:42 CST
Hell hath no fury like a gamer whose game has been scorned.

'Hrmm?' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2009-06-02 14:22:02 CST
When in doubt, change the subject or resort to cliches?

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-02 14:56:00 CST
For Wilhelm2451

*pats Wilhelm on the head*

There, there will be alright. Just breath deeply.

My last comment was not a cliche - if you had been paying attention when you, presumably, listen to the shows, it is something I say quite often. To spell it out, the point is this. No matter what game any podcaster or columnist talks about, no matter what viewpoint any writer or podcaster takes, there will ALWAYS be some gamer somewhere who takes the gravest of offense to whatever is said. This will always be the case. As the late great Charles Schultz one wrote, if you always go around being careful what you say you will never get anything said.

That being said, not only is it not changing the subject it is right on point - it is also easier to simply repeat my oft used expression (see above) then have to write a paragraph and a half to explain it to someone who is miffed because they don't like my opiion about one of their favored games.

And ALL THAT being said, if I offended some listeners who don't like the fact that I think that players who scam/steal from other players are theives - good. A player that steals from another, whether virtual goods or real goods is still a thief. If the term bothers the thief - good, it should. Whether or not I or you or anyone else thinks it is a feature of the game or a matter of a company who is too damn lazy to take drastic measures about it is besides the point

*pats listener on the head*

There now...wasn't it easier to simply say "Hell hath no fury like a gamer whose game has been scorned"

Perhaps it suits you better, to paraphrase dear old grand dad, to try and keep the show thread turned into a micturating contest?

If it is a micturating contest you all means. As a an acquaintance in the advertising business once told me, "There is no such thing as bad publicity - there is only publicity"

'Hrmm again?' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2009-06-02 17:01:05 CST
How condescending you can be, which is frankly why I don't listen to the show.

I asked two questions in my comment which you ignored and instead trotted out an over-used phrase to dismiss my comment. How that wasn't changing the subject or using a cliche certainly made for dull rationalization though.

I will repeat my questions, just so we are clear:

1) To whom should CCP be loyal? The current customers who enjoy the game and pay to play it or those who don't like the game and its mechanics and have taken their subscription dollars elsewhere?

2) If the mechanics of EVE Online are as odious as you make out, why has the game experienced such steady growth over the years?

I don't think your comments about CCP can stand without some acknowledgment of those questions since you are criticizing a fundamental aspect of the game.

'Ding...round 2' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-02 17:11:24 CST
Dear, dear Willhelm:

Your first question would be what would be considered a "leading question." The second question doesn't apply to the issue at hand at all. The issue is not "to whom" should ccp be loyal. Neither you, no I, nor anyone else (whether it appeals to you or not) are able to speak for "the entire fan base". Second, This is not about a "game mechanic", even if you want to take it into that realm. This is about one thing - plain and simple: One player of a game stealing from another player in a game. Whether or not ccp choose to do something about it is not the issue and quit frankly I don't give a damn. I do feel, however, that once the games come out that pose direct competition ccp will be forced to consider this issue.

Another point...if you don't listen to the show why do you care about the show thread? I guess this is just a bit of "good natured" trolling.

Ding...round two:

'Another thought...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-02 17:18:20 CST
Another thought, before we begin the next round of the micturating contest:

The entire presumption on your behalf is that one player stealing from another is a "fundamental aspect of the game". I seriously doubt that any develper of any game sits down and says "hey, I know, lets design a game where it is easier for players to scam other players." In any given mmo, if there is a way for one player to turn a profit from another they will find it - and in turn seek ways to try find catharsis about the entire thing. One player stealing virtual goods from another is not an aspect of the game, it is plain and simple about one player victimizing another and it doesn't matter what the title is at the top of the page.


'Round Two... FIGHT!' by CozmikR5
Submitted on 2009-06-03 04:32:50 CST
I have no idea if CCP was out to design a game with the thought of "Hey, let's design a game where is easy to scam people!" but I do know they designed the game with one thing: the best in-game market ever made this side of real life. The EVE market is litterally Capitalism Gone Mad. And as in real life there are those who will stop at nothing to make a profit. Now on the regular market in EVE that kinda hard to do unless the player isn't paying attention to what he's clicking. On the public contracts though it's pretty much anything goes. But now, if a person is eager enough to accept a contract that says "Megathron Navy Issue, 250 million ISK" without checking the details of the contract and he finds out only afterwards that it was a regular Megathron worth only about 85 million, then I'm sorry but that person DESERVED to be scammed.

When I first got into the game and visited my first market hub I was noticing the tons of contracts being put up on the Local channel. Of course being a complete noob there was no way I could afford any of it, legitimate or not, but I did ask my real-life buddy who got me into this (hey there Letrange!) what the @#$% was that all about. And since then there is just no way a scammer will get my ISK. Hopefully the most notorious scammers will get my rounds of ammunition though because that is all that scammers deserve, and damn I hope they have some very expensive implants >:)

'New to eve (due to you :)' by Pufnstuf
Submitted on 2009-06-03 10:11:24 CST
so now I am trying eve... you made my brother very happy who dual boxes there

Different game for sure... i like that you are highlighting it now and like the last couple of interviews... very pretty and luckily my brotehr is helping me around...

A wee bit of rudeness though that LOTRO does not get... Only thing I do not like... people can be polite

'heh' by Token
Submitted on 2009-06-03 10:21:21 CST
@ CozmikR5

Scams in EVE get a lot more ingenious than fake contracts. I've seen GM's refuse to lift a finger when loopholes in the lazy game mechanics have permitted people (smart people I will give them that) to get away with blatant thefts. Most hardcore EVE players have accepted this, usually after being a victim at some point. Your day is yet to come, if you play this fully, the chances of you never getting scammed are quite small, so are your chances of unloading ammunition into the thief.

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-06-03 11:58:07 CST
@ CozmikR5: when it comes to the market in eve we are in whole hearted agreement that Eve Online "has the best in game market this side of real life". And what is more there is little doubt that some developer DID sit down (or rather teams of them) and said "Hey I know, lets design a player economy that is so realistic that it merits hiring someone with a PHD in economics to study." Another good reason to join a corp with it's own POS, Orca, Freighter...etc, etc. (I Did)

@Token: Yes, I will agree with your take on GMS not getting involved when someone finds a loop hole. Credit where credit is due, however. When I petitioned a GM because a mission chain (read quest chain if you play WoW) was broken it was answered in 30 seconds - and even WoW can't say that.

@ Pufnstuf: Welcome to New Eden. Online, most of the time I am Honore Harington - yes I know, that is sort of the Eve Online equivalent of a derivative of "Legolas" but what can I say except I like the David Webber books. To be sure there are some rude people in Eve but you will find there are many, many generous people as well. It is quite common for one player who doesn't even know another player to give a rookie several million in start up isk. A good place to look for help is, of course, the "HELP" channel. That is monitored most of the time by player volunteers and sometimes by GMS in the evening.

'Caveat emptor...?' by AnkleBiter
Submitted on 2009-06-03 15:39:04 CST
I absolutely love EVE-Online, the main thing that drew me to it was the (nearly) completely player-driven aspect of the market. Yes, EVE is not for the inattentive, especially so for the contracts, but by paying attention you can guard against that kind of scamming. The only kind I have any real issue with is the corp-thief (you can limit your risk, but I don't think it can be completely eliminated): cleaning out a player-corp of cash/modules/ships, with very little risk... whether they transfer everything to a different character and delete the original, or simply drop to an NPC-corp (and therefore unable to declare war on). I can't figure out a way to "punish" the perpetrator(s): The bounty system is rubbish. Implement some sort of "hit" contract? Some way of tagging your stuff (possession of "procedes of crime") that Concord would take offence to (a tag that anyone can see, ie: you would know it's "hot" before purchase)? I don't really have a good idea on how to help curb this. *shrug*

'Danger on Eve CD' by Pufnstuf
Submitted on 2009-06-04 13:42:57 CST
Hi Julie (and Fran)

thanks for the welcome. I just got m first ship blown up :) luckily i learned of insurance so not a total loss. my brother has sent me a wonderful training plan so I am going to be in good shape.

One thing you may want to warn your listeners since I am suffering now:
if you get a buddy key trial (or any trial), you cannot add a cd key to that account. i sent out and bought the box (like i do for all games I like to have) and there is NO WARNING that a new account is required. I ahd assumed a 21 day trial is a NEW account so now I am stuck in the trial unable to use a $43 box. Sort of confusing when all other games allow you to buy cdkeys and add them to trial accounts. I hope they make this right because that is a bad way to introduce new players especially since my brother sent me 2 mil isk worth of training (already used).

Just thought you may want to know this.

'EVE-CD key...' by AnkleBiter
Submitted on 2009-06-04 16:29:08 CST
@Pufnstuf: See if you can get a response from CCP (via the petition system) regarding that problem... you may still be able to use the key after the trial period.

I'm really not sure, but it never hurts to try.

ps: yeah, yeah, I know a lot of people have had bad experiences using the petition system... at least the answer they give you can't be "Try clearing your cache files"