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No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

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No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 23.2
Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:59:00 GMT [download/play]

We are your worst nightmare - nuns with attitude.
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Episode 23.2 Discussion Thread

'?!?!?!' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2009-02-13 04:25:51 CST
This had better not really be the last show, and dammit I want that code from NYC comic con. I want the nail mowhawk for my slayer.

'Yep' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-13 04:57:10 CST
I want to apologize for being such an AWEFUL guest. How dare I not be more open minded, and dammit, I knew I should have corrected every wrong thing you said while I was there. Shame on you for being wrong and not holding me accountable! Shame on all of the other guests as well, how dare they!

'Uh, WTF?' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-02-13 04:57:53 CST
I hope you announcing this as your last show was a Friday the 13th joke. As far as accuracy, no one is perfect and you've never professed to be hardcore at any of the games you're playing so, people can get over themselves. Lastly, you don't have to "push thru" anything. This is a misconception about gaming. When it becomes work then something is actually wrong with the game, not the player. If you're not enjoying T4 in WAR, you can do what the other 900K of us who bought the game did and just unsubscribe. Pushing through gaming brick walls is what is sooooooooooo 2008. I know I'm over it.

'crazy talk' by Token
Submitted on 2009-02-13 05:25:55 CST
What I understand from listening to this is that producing the show the way you want creates a lot of drama from putting yourselves out there, it can be quite a hard thing to live with because it changes the way you think about the internet and gaming etc etc
Am I about right or completely off? I'm glad you at least told us you were ending it unlike most.

'Not ending the show' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 05:41:53 CST
No, we are not really ending the show...this show was just well pointed sacrcasm in the face of such ridculous comments. Would a nun (me) who stands up for herself so often she gets called heretic actually care what a few people who don't agree with me think? What kind of columnist/outspoken podcaster/semi-"shock jock" would I be?

Nope that was what the silly laughter at the end of the show was about.

Show 24 is being recorded but it is ending up so long that we might have to break it up into a two parter. It is starting to looks as if it might be 2 hours long by the time we are through...

Note to Burntsushi: I seriously doubt that after this show any of the codes will still be good (and not because Fran and I will use them either)


'The codes?' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2009-02-13 06:11:06 CST
Why wouldn't the codes be good? They should be fine. Me wants it. :D~

'To BurntSushi' by McDonagh
Submitted on 2009-02-13 14:04:35 CST
They think the original provider of the codes will redistribute them pretty much immediately if he doesn't mellow out. I am inclined to agree with them.

And on the show, Figured it was a joke lol. If you really did quit over this i would have to stalk you two down and go on the show just to tell off the person who said you guys need an expert. You may have some factual inaccuracies from time to time, but nearly everyone does(even the "hardcore" supergamers). I love your show and couldn't stand to see it go over something so pitiful :P

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 14:38:27 CST
Indeed McDonagh is correct by saying "They think the original provider of the codes will redistribute them pretty much immediately if he doesn't mellow out".

And if he doesn't after 23.2 he certainly will after Brent posts the "Reality Knocking" article I wrote as a result of this and other emails like it - regarding gender and gaming.

On the other you don't think all of the emails we get are from wackos, we got one of the best thought out emails I have read in a long time from a Senior Producer of an independant game developer which Fran and I will read and discuss in show 24 (you know who you are). And if said Sr. Producer wants a show to himself to be a guest on he has but to ask.


'On the other hand...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 15:01:38 CST
There is, of course, one sure fire way to get us to stop talking about the leveling curve that gets so steep in Tier 4 that is chases people away from the game...



'Please NoZ!' by mikejl
Submitted on 2009-02-13 15:31:20 CST
I hope the "last show" was a joke? I will say there are topics I do disagree with you on however I appreciate different points of view and always enjoy the show.

My opinion on females in Warhammer.. I'm new to the whole Warhammer lore and universe and really don't care if they do a female of each class/race. Actually think it be great to see a female Black Orc .. be kind of cool. And on the record I love women.. just ask my wife.

Hope to here more podcasts.

'Say what you need to say' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-13 15:55:41 CST
Aw... short show. You teasers.

Let's not forget that medieval times also had orcs, ogres, vampires, ratmen, undead walking Egyptian undead, something called snotlings, and of course elven magic!

What!? You don't think these things existed!? Be real people.

By the way, Paul Barnett announced on his most recent video blog on YouTube that he grabbed a handful of codes and plans to distribute them somehow, assuming he can get around "evil marketing."

'At Mikejl' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 15:57:40 CST
@MIkejl: Yes indeed read the comment above entitled "not ending the show" by myself. It was nothing more than well aimed sarcasm at those few ridiculous comments we got - such as the one in the show that insulted all of our guests.

Not to fear, show 24 isn't finished yet but promises to be so long we might have to break it up into part one and part two. Show 24 is the show where we talk about all the comments we asked for about why listeners think Mythic lost 450,000 customers.


'I want to play a snotling' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 16:00:53 CST
Of all the characters I have seen or painted on the original tabletop game the snotlings were my favorite. Back in the day when I played D & D the DM/GM had something he called a "swuf" of hobbits - basically so many hobbit theives that they would sweep through an area like a cloud in the old bugs bunny cartoons.

I want to play a snottling berserker with a mohawk and a short red dress.


'Oh, I forgot...' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-13 16:04:12 CST
Lizardmen! Yes, medieval times were plagued with lizardmen. And I'm still astonished how the European governments were able to cover up the GIANT CHAOS PORTAL that obviously existed (and still exists) somewhere across the pond.

'Aaaaaand another thing...' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-13 16:18:29 CST
It's a good thing medieval times didn't have female warrior types or we would have never made it through all the kooky garbage that was going on back then!

Weren't medieval times the greatest?

'I want to play a snotling' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 16:58:57 CST
Of all the characters I have seen or painted on the original tabletop game the snotlings were my favorite. Back in the day when I played D & D the DM/GM had something he called a "swuf" of hobbits - basically so many hobbit theives that they would sweep through an area like a cloud in the old bugs bunny cartoons.

I want to play a snottling berserker with a mohawk and a short red dress.


'Hahahah' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-13 17:00:08 CST
@ Seritaph: hahahahahahhahha...too funny. Thanks for the good laugh!!!


'Girl Gamers' by Pufnstuf
Submitted on 2009-02-13 19:52:57 CST
Actually I respect 'girl gamers' a lot. SOrry for the name but I adore alliteration and 'women of warhammer or wow' does not cut it for me. They are surrounded by nerdy often sexist guys who do not think.

In fact the best guilds I have belonged to are often run by women. Often they are friendlier and more helpful especially for us more needy types (I need lots of coddling in a guild :))

I love your perspectives and think you put on a highly entertaining show and think gender is irrelevant. If anything it is nice to hear more women on podcasts (Jerry SNook of DDOCast has Lessah and Rowanheal and Shut Up who's talking has Karen (and sometimes Jute) but it is mostly MALE.

The medieval comment was dumb: Joan of Arc was a wonderful warrior and in Lord of the Rings lore there were a couple of female leaders (like Arwen). Also do not forget Boudica who wrecked havoc for the male Romans. And of course do not forget my nemesis WItchiepoo!

In fact until recently I was a dedicated 'cross gamer' only played females... Why? because I could play into their sexism... If a pretty elf wipes your group you are kinder than if it is a gruff dwarf... That being said I think it is a shame Slayers are not female as well... I would have made one named Prissy... Since that goes well with a Mohawk...

Oh well.... Sorry that us men are stupidly sexist. )By the way the laughing at the end of I am woman really crepped me out...) Sort of like a bad fun house... I cannot get it out of my head...

Submitted on 2009-02-14 03:23:05 CST
say it isent so.

I dont even play war and your podcast is the best i have ever heard.
I have 71 diferant podcast that i listen to through out the week, your is my faverite.
It dose not matter what the podcast is about, none can compare to the pure injoyment and well being i feel after every one of your shows.

If that really was your last show than who ever sent in those foul messeges better watch out.
If i find out that they play war and let slip theyre charector names, i will buy war just to gank them into quiting the game.
Any online game.
No ban will stop me eather, buying a new copy of a game just so i can hunt them down is not to much.
I have alerted my brothers to the situation, they are ready to start the twunty four hour gank and camp fest right now.

Hearing your podcast and not knowing if what you said was true or not, brought a real tear to my eye...

'Seriously....' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-14 04:44:46 CST
Read the other posts before you make a post of your own like that. The answer was given no less than three times already...

'@JMO' by Saylah
Submitted on 2009-02-14 17:28:21 CST
Stop being silly, JMO. People do not read on the internet!

'' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-15 05:04:55 CST
Thank you Saylah. I've had a pretty rough couple weeks here, that gave me a much needed laugh. =..)

'HEY-Jmo' by rocknerd
Submitted on 2009-02-15 10:23:34 CST
internet crossing guard, great job, that guy will NEVER post again, keep up the good work.

'The cake is a lie...' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-15 13:03:33 CST
...and so are the reports of the shows demise. Not to worry breakbone it was just sarcasm - well that and two short shows while we work on the long one.

But it does bring up a good point - that's why we include response from all the sources on the show, because it is quite common for everyone not to read all of the posts. In a way it was great to hear the response from the people who thought we really were going to quit - talk about a warm fuzzy. I guess this is sort of a Orson Wells/War of the worlds sort of thing. Many people get the show from Itunes and didn't see any of the show thread.


'@ rocknerd' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-15 15:58:13 CST
That would require him reading my post... =p

'"Holy Hell" quite literally...' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-16 14:29:56 CST
For starters, I am the one who wrote the e-mail that Julie read at the beginning of the show, not the person who recorded the mp3. I wish more of my email (and the one following) could have been read so you would understand the context of it. Here is my first, and I'll let you read and decide if the drama that ensued was necessary.

"Good afternoon,
I've listened to you both since show #1, and I'm just coming to the end of show #22. I enjoy the show quite a bit, even though I'm not an active Warhammer player anymore (I lasted to 31), and have gone back to WoW. I think you guys are probably going in the same direction as me, because that game has been an awful disappointment.
Let me preface what I'm going to say a little here. Of course there are some of us that are hardcore, and some are casual. Those are both terms that speak about not only your available playtime but your attitude in or toward the game. I guess I have a more hardcore attitude, but with only a casual players schedule to play (a couple hours a night at best). I try to do my best to plan gear, learn about different specs, generally keep up with WoW news, and so forth. So, that being said, I can tell Sister Frances has more of a casual mentality, not getting into the math of the game, and the exacting details (at least that's my guess) and is someone who just plays to play (which is completely fine, absolutely!). I get that, however I take issue when she cries that we have to nerf rogues, and that Blizzard doesn't balance anything. Just in general, speaking of absolutely is just foolish, but it's especially so in this case. It makes my brain hurt sometimes with the mistakes and errors that come up on the show, but I understand where it's coming from, so I take it in stride and it doesn't stop me from listening every week and enjoying (and a lot of times laughing out loud in my car). It's gone overboard screaming for rogues being nerfed because she gets owned by them in PVP. I don't play a rogue, and haven't for a long time, but I have played every class to 70, and a couple to 80. Stating that Blizzard doesn't balance anything is simply false, and ignorant to boot. It's the whole Paper/Rock/Scissors. Some classes are strong against others, and some are weak versus others. This is something they are constantly working on, and I think they've done a pretty good job, but it's ongoing. They tweak this, and wait to see how their changes affected the situation. Sometimes they go too far (recently with Hunter nerfs, as an example) and then make corrections in the other direction.
I don't know, I kinda just wish you guys had a 3rd host that would act as... not an expert, but someone who really knows their stuff, that could speak on subjects with experience, so that when you guys speak about something that is wrong, or even that could use some clarifying or elaboration, they could step in and offer that. None of your guests have been able to provide that.
Well, I thank you for reading my feedback, and I hope that you understand that I mean this only as constructive criticism."

'I love you sisters, but...' by Spyte
Submitted on 2009-02-16 19:21:04 CST
I thought it was very harsh to suggest that Gurumba had a problem with you because you're women. There's no doubting the existence of outright mysogyny in our world, but I didn't think he deserved tarring with that brush. I say - save your rants for the real woman haters, and look with a mixture of sadness and pity on the poor fools who try to chat you up in WoW!

'New direction for the show?' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-16 21:14:00 CST
I tend to disagree that the sister's need a third person to act as "not an expert, but someone who really knows their stuff, and could speak on subjects with experience." I've gotten plenty of useful information from the show. For example, I've saved on my hard drive the show that goes into detail on crafting professions in W.A.R. Add to that, they just did a session not that long ago that discussed successful grouping tactics and etiquette.

If you're looking for someone to simply correct Sister Fran's opinion on Rogues based on mathematical calculations found on SNOOOORE! Sorry, I drifted at the very thought of such a boring show.

Personally I like the show's opinionated and satirical nature just the way it is.

'To Seritaph - Oh God no!' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-16 21:17:32 CST
Hell no that's not what I would want. You are taking it all the way to the opposite extreme there. They are very opinionated, which is all fine and dandy, but when they are speaking in absolutes, and make sweeping statements to nerf rogues because Blizzard (and I'm paraphrasing) "Never balances anything" I think that's a pretty big leap away from what we've seen from Blizzard, and is patently false.

'Ok then.' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-16 21:38:12 CST
So I agree that Sister Fran's comments are a bit on the absolute side, but as a Priest class I tend to agree with her. In the few battlegrounds I have done, it's been completely owned by rogues. It's easy for me to share her frustration when my life expectancy as a priest is about 5 seconds before I have to rez again and die in another 5 seconds. And trust me when I say, I don't seek out rogues to go 1v1 with them, expecting to win. I'm just trying to keep myself and other people alive.

Suffice it to say I don't play battlegrounds. Maybe I'm just a terrible player and so is Fran. But out on the community site priest forums, there's a lot of frustrated people complaining about continuously dying to a rogue stun-lock.

'Understood...' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-16 21:45:04 CST
I can totally understand that... but again, it's rock/paper/scissors. They don't balance the game 1v1. It's as simple as that. You do one of 3 things imo. Learn the tricks to fight back against rogues, spec differently, or reroll. I know it sounds harsh, but that's the way things are. I used to play Arms warrior and I'd destroy rogues in PVP 95% of the time. There were rogues who had skill and/or better gear, and could beat me 50% of the time. It's the same with priest/rogue or any combination. Any class can beat any other class with the right gear, spec, skill.

'Eye of the tiger...' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-16 22:19:55 CST
Well, I thought I made it clear I don't seek out a 1v1 situation expecting to win, but in the process you bring up a good point.

For the short time I played W.A.R., I really enjoyed the scenarios. I feel that's one thing they did very well. I also played a priest class, high-elf archmage, and my survivability was much higher. I managed to heal, protect and do a decent amount of damage. Most of all, I had fun because I wasn't playing the dying/rez game.

But I digress. The main thing I noticed playing RVR in W.A.R. (getting back to my point) is that people tend to take a cooperative group approach instead of a 1v1 approach. So if I were to suggest a solution, it would be to figure out a way to encourage this more in W.o.W. through the goals and game design.

As for the suggestion to reroll, I don't think so. I enjoy the priest class and do very well in PVE. I don't think I'm exactly terrible in PVP either because at level 45 dueled a Deathknight 10 levels higher than me and got him down to 1/3 health before he finally killed me. I knew I couldn't beat him, but I still count it as a victory.

Spec differently? I see the validity here. Some talents are obviously geared more toward PVP. Still let's be fair. I don't want to respec every time I feel like going into battlegrounds. Even then, the complaint on the priest forums is across the board on all specs. Shadow priests who you'd think would do well PVP are especially frustrated when it comes to PVP.

Learn the tricks. I suppose if all things we balanced, then this would be the most feasible answer. But since I need to last more than 5 secs immobile and stunned to pull off a trick, I think it might come back to balancing.

'I hear you 100%' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-16 22:47:16 CST
Don't take me the wrong way, I am not saying that Priests couldn't use some lovin' right now, and I think Blizzard realizes that since they've mentioned that they are going to look into giving better survivability to priest. Just played devil's advocate here... stunned? Trinket, then Psychic Scream? Bubble? Pain Suppression? If you are human you have two ways to get out of stuns. Is your gear suited toward PVP? Do you have Arena/BG gear? As far as spec, Unbreakable Will is a must for Priests in PVP. Do you have Martyrdom? Focused Will? Divine Aegis? Grace? Borrowed Time? Meta Gem that reduce stun duration? (Can't think of the name off the top of my head).

See my point here? People are crying "nerf rogues" yet there are ways that they themselves can mitigate the pain-in-the-assity that rogues represent. All these increase your survivability in PVP. Now, you can also understand that if you aren't properly geared/spec'd for PVP your life is going to be much shorter. I wouldn't dare go into BGs and expect to live very long until I got the gear to support myself there. What's great is that there are BOE crafted gear at 78 that gives you a HUGE step up in PVP, so it shortens that gear curve necessary to do well in BGs/Arenas.

I'm not saying Rogues should or shouldn't be nerfed, or that Priests should or shouldn't be buffed, I'm simply stating that people who aren't doing everything they can to survive in PVP, simply shouldn't be pointing to Blizzard when they've put so many of these things into the game to increase survivability.

Ok whew... that's enough of a novel for now :) Hope you understand where I'm coming from and that I'm not trying to slight you or anyone, only present an alternative way of thinking.

'I dont know what to put here so I'm not going to put anything....:D' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 01:16:04 CST
I see what everyone is saying and while I agree, the extent its being taken to is too far. The guy's letter really should have been read in its entirety. Instead we received a biased view and after reading the letter myself he wasn't indicating such notions at all. I may not agree with all of the ideas (yeah I like hearing a third or fourth guest on but its not necessary) but at least let the full letter be heard before you blast him on podcast. It's only fair.

As for the whole bit about WAR, I do see a bit of a brick wall, but not as bad as everyone says it is. I have a 38 Bright Wizard so that may have something to do with it, but I got through most of the boring parts by doing quests with a set group of friends. We would all pick up the same quests in a zone, go out do them, come back, rinse repeat. The part that made it easy was that occasionally while we were out doing the quests, we would do PQ's or even RVR a bit. Two Knights, one Rune Priest, one Bright Wizard, and occasionally one Warrior Priest can farm just about anything in Tier 4, even PQ's marked Hard. It made for easy questing, easy Exp, and a lot of fun. No, we aren't all the same levels, but that's okay. Sometimes we have to repeat an area for someone who wasn't there the previous night, but I just look at it as extra Exp and coin. Never really hurt anyone, you know?

When it comes to the "Nerf this class, they're OP'd!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I can see both sides of the coin. One of the benefits of the Bright Wizard is the massive damage I do, most mobs don't last more than 4 hits, provided I crit appropriately. On the other hand, one of the disadvantages of the Bright Wizard is the massive damage I do, I pull aggro really easily and everyone on Destro side cries "NERF!" whenever the patch notes comes through. I'll admit the damage is a bit over the top, but so is the Sorc's and Magus'. I can't take either class down unless I have three others beating on them or they're 5 levels below me, but they still can solo me so easily that I have multiple dead-heads to use an old DAOC phrase. So I know what Fran means about the Rogues, though I've never actually played WoW myself (I know, shocker isn't it?) but those of my friends who have have strong opinions against them. But to make a sweeping generalization? No, that doesn't seem right. Trust me, it may seem like Rogues are the end all be all OP'd class but that's just because someone figured out how to use them in a manner other than what Blizzard figured out. Give it time and another class will take their place in the OP'd Hall of Fame. And when it comes to the people that play them, I'll semi-quote-paraphrase-something you two and say "It's just pixels on the screen. You don't know who's on the other end." And it's true. You don't know so you can't say. Probably sounds like I'm lecturing (hell, maybe I am) but I was on the other end of the sweeping generalization before when I made my scout in DAOC. It sucked REALLY badly because people assumed I was a 16 year old boy with no life, who liked to pick off the greys. No, that is far from the case. I'm in fact a 21 year old woman who just likes to get RPs (notice I didn't mention the part about no life but meh).

I don't know, but it seemed to me that this show was far too snarky for my liking, even given the circumstances where, yes some was expected, needed even. But to this degree? I'm sorry but I must disagree.

'Thanks.' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 01:33:14 CST
I appreciate the folks who are seeing things from my point of view. Yes, I would have liked to have the whole thing or not at all, especially when taken out of context, and certainly not have gotten blasted for something I didn't say (men vs. women gamers).

'@Gurumba' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 01:42:26 CST
NP, but at the same time I gotta say that they've done pretty well with trying not to be wrong in their information, and when it comes to the guests, Jmo and Saylah are really the best anyone could have :) (yeah there's been others but those two are my personal favorites lol) and while yeah they aren't experts by any means, they provide another element and point of view not seen otherwise. So to say that they don't help is a bit off.

But then too, I'm a weird one so who knows, maybe I'm the minority here.....

'Understood... but...' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 01:58:12 CST
Yes, while they may have had topics they spoke about and added knowledge about, the large majority of the show they aren't there when these mistakes happen. Look, I'm not by any means saying the show must be perfect. Hell no. What I am saying, however (and this is more of a life motto, and transcends this podcast) is to not speak about something you aren't at least reasonably sure is correct. If you do so without that confidence, you are doing yourselves and your listeners a disservice.

'Just a Squishy's view....' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:02:37 CST
I understand what you're saying and in the case of the whole Rogue debacle, agree with it, but to say they don't know what they're talking about with a lot of the stuff is a bit of an overstatment. Maybe somethings, but hell that's a misgiving any of us are going to have. I don't know, there's probably some rose-color glasses somewhere with my name on them, but I just think the show (pre-Rogue hollerin of course) was just fine, but meh, I'm an oddball so that probably explains it :)

'If I didn't agree, I wouldn't be listening :)' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:10:34 CST
As I said in the e-mail, I take it for what it's worth, so I totally am with you. I feel like I might be coming off as a nitpicker, but it's worth mentioning that I only had an issue with the show (after 20+ episodes) at this point, and they've said a lot that I've just ignored and moved on. I agree, I take it in stride and don't let it interrupt my enjoyment of the show. Again, I wouldn't be here if I weren't a fan of the show.

':D' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:14:47 CST
As long as someone sees my point, then maybe I haven't gone off the deep end...maybe.

'Or... ?' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:25:08 CST
Maybe we're both nutty? :)

'shhhhhh.....' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:28:34 CST
I won't tell anyone if you won't......

'Psht' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:29:29 CST
It's not like people can read it in a public... forum or something...


'lol' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 02:43:13 CST
Yeah........ :-D *hides the horns with her pipecleaner halo*

'The Great Wall of Text' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 11:33:52 CST
*looks at the great wall of text above*

It's early early early here and I haven't had my first cup of coffee. So I will try and get my eyes to focus (I think they have started to bleed). In the mean time before the coffee all I can think of is...


'Yeah.....' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 11:36:21 CST
We kinda went haywire didn't we?

'Yes indeedily doo' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 12:23:49 CST
As I sit here with cup of coffee in hand I will have to agree with MagicKira that it went a bit haywire. (An interesting expression that, having seen many bales of hay in my time I wonder where that expression comes from),


I still haven't read the above letters. Thanks to all who lept to our defense (here's looking at you MagicKIra and Seritaph),

The interesting thing to me is the person who sent in the audio file (and you will here the entire audio clip in the next show) wasn't upset at all - at least he didn't seem to be.

And so we have finished with step one of the contest for the first of the codes.

Beyond that while there won't be anyone to keep anyone else in line, Robert Rolland has kindly agreed to do a segement on Eve Online for us as we have received requests for Eve Online news.

In the next show which is 54 minutes long now and only half edited) you will also here a news segement from our sponsor on how to make money in WoW and all I can say is "WoW" I had no idea.

let me finish the coffee and read the great wall of text.

More later.


'Comments are fun!' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 13:17:15 CST
May as well us them. It's nice to see civil conversation, and I don't think anyone is nutty (unless you follow through with that pipecleaner thing MK). I think we all have valid points and it's a good read. I'm happy Gurumba posted to defend himself.

Sounds like the next show is chock full of awesome stuff. Can't wait.

'Rogues...ugh' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 13:57:39 CST
I see your point completely Gurumba about trinkets, gear and talents. I'm not trying to imply it's impossible to survive against a rogue, though looking back I might have given that impression.

I suppose if I wanted to make it my focus to put rogues in their place, I could. But in order to do that I would need to do a few things. Die a lot to get honor to get gear because most standard gear is pretty useless. Switch around my talents for PVE and PVP situtations, which would get too costly. Now, dual-spec is coming, but at the moment that's only scheduled for level 80s, so that leaves out a lot of people who want to play BGs before that. And basically make it a job which removes a lot of the fun and spontaneity I think BGs should be. Which is why I think W.A.R. does it better.

Fran may be shouting. 'Nerf rogues!" from the rooftops, but I translate that to balance things better please. And I agree. I think a person should be able to jump into BGs no matter what the spec, gear or otherwise and have it be enjoyable. Design a BG where it's in the group's best interest to defend the squishies, instead of simply racking up kills 1v1.

I've decided that WoW is not the game of choice for me to PVP in, and I'm okay with that, but I still felt the need to validate Fran's point.

'Agree to disagree' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 14:11:26 CST
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. You are stating that someone (like yourself) who isn't geared for PVP should be able to survive against someone who is? Don't you see the problem in that line of logic? You have to remember that they don't balance the game for under max level! Anyone CAN just jump into a BG, but to excel you should have your gear/spec aimed at PVP. I'm sorry, but waltzing into a BG with PVE gear/spec and then crying NERF is just short-sighted, and goes against the system they have setup in WoW. For example, if I made a toon and at level 10 went into a BG, and got my ass handed to me by a 19 twink rogue... is it fair I cry "nerf" ? Of course not. This guy has gone out of his way to gear himself to the teeth, so why should he be punished (in the form of a nerf) because of that? People gear up via BGs and Arenas as Blizzard has intended, and if you don't want to "play the game" then you have no right to complain about dying a lot. Gear matters. Spec matters. Skill matters.

Now, I'm not saying it is a good or a bad system... but you have to play within the "rules" of the system. WAR has different rules, and for good for for bad, it allows people of the proper level to compete with each other. But again, whether the disparity is levels or gear, there should be a gap there... otherwise we'd all be naked and an entire part of the game (gear) would be negated.

'Lions and tigers and, oh my' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 15:52:33 CST
*reads the wall of text.*

The rogues rant is so 2008 - Fran has gone to new complaints now. In fact in a recent show she even mentioned something she does to mitigate the abilities that rogues have.

*sets the rogue nonsense aside*

@ Gurumba: What go you in trouble were these two sentences:

"I don't know, I kinda just wish you guys had a 3rd host that would act as... not an expert, but someone who really knows their stuff, that could speak on subjects with experience, so that when you guys speak about something that is wrong, or even that could use some clarifying or elaboration, they could step in and offer that. None of your guests have been able to provide that."

First - do you want dry math and talent tree specs and in depth analysis? Go to the site we recommend on the show. Quite simply they are THE BEST at it bar none when it comes to wow: (I think it is .com)


You can say what you want about me - I will be happy to cross verbal swords with anyone. Don't offer the third host put down without expecting something in return. On the other hand, if you insult my guests the fit is going to hit the shan, as it is said. As for the third host nonsense seritaph said is best:

"I tend to disagree that the sister's need a third person to act as "not an expert, but someone who really knows their stuff, and could speak on subjects with experience." I've gotten plenty of useful information from the show. For example, I've saved on my hard drive the show that goes into detail on crafting professions in W.A.R." - Seritaph

'The first contest' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 16:01:40 CST
The first contest, courtesy of Sarc, is going to work this way.

Once the contest begins we will tell the listeners to go to the body of the show thread where the directions to the first "clue" will be found.

This will be an audio clue in a previous show - you will find out which one at that time. There will be questions announced at that time. The first person to answer the questions correctly and send the answsers to will win the price (not the only one)

There is more than one code to be given away as prizes. The codes are for in game Warhammer items from the recent New York Comicon.

Thanks to Sarc,


'Again, to the extreme...' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 16:42:09 CST
Excuse me, Julie... but what got YOU into trouble, was reading only a snippet from an e-mail and then lambasting me for something I didn't even say (men vs. women gamers). If you want to "cross swords" (kind of adversarial, aren't you?) at least have the decency to admit where you misspoke by laying blame squarely where it didn't belong. I freely admit fault when applicable, can you say the same?

Regarding the "3rd host". Those guests (at least from what I remember) spoke about WAR, not about WoW. I took issue with recent comments on WoW, where those guests were not involved. I'm hoping that since elaborating on this point those guests understand my point of view, and my comments were not meant as a slight by any means. Nothing further needs to be said.

No, I don't want dry math. If I did, I wouldn't be a listener of your podcast, would I? I never said I wanted dry math, and reiterated that in previous posts here. I've made myself clear on that point. You are taking the opposite extreme approach, which is irrational.

You both have a good working knowledge of WoW, so stick to that comfort zone. Straying outside of that (the whole "group/raid gear/spec check bitch & moan" session is just ridiculous - a fact I mentioned via another e-mail to you both) is where I take issue. You take a very narrow view on a subject and don't spend any time considering the flip side of the coin! I know it was "I'm mad as hell" which is just a bitch session, but shouldn't you take responsibility and think about it further? At least explore what people could possibly be thinking instead of slamming them outright, without even understanding what their point of view is. That's just plain ignorant, and I think you are both better than that. Prove me right.

'Now were talking!' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:11:35 CST
Naked toon, no gear battlegrounds! Now that sounds like fun! Why not? Let's have some battleground scenarios (not all of them mind you) that take a different approach. What would be the harm in that?

'I'm all for it!' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:13:11 CST
If people went in knowing that gear didn't matter at all, I think it'd be fun. But then you'd still have people bitching that they got owned because someone with X or Y spec kicked their ass, and it needs to be nerfed. Then if they have a BG with no talent specs, and no gear... because would want Night Elfs nerfed because they can Shadowmeld. It would go on and on!

'The first contest' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:26:50 CST
The first contest, courtesy of Sarc, is going to work this way.

Once the contest begins we will tell the listeners to go to the body of the show thread where the directions to the first "clue" will be found.

This will be an audio clue in a previous show - you will find out which one at that time. There will be questions announced at that time. The first person to answer the questions correctly and send the answsers to will win the price (not the only one)

There is more than one code to be given away as prizes. The codes are for in game Warhammer items from the recent New York Comicon.

Thanks to Sarc,


'@ Garumba' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:31:39 CST
@ Garumba...well you seem to like to call people ignorant. Had you waited until show 24 was released (we have been working on it since before show 23.2 was released) you would have heard your letter read in full - and in fact you still will.

And reading your response I see:

"Excuse me, Julie... but what got YOU into trouble..."

Got me in trouble with who? You? Oh sweetie pie I am just getting warmed up. Wait until the next flame proof undies. By the way as long as you never bring up your real name we never will.


'@ Garumba' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:41:07 CST
@ Garumba...well you seem to like to call people ignorant. Had you waited until show 24 was released (we have been working on it since before show 23.2 was released) you would have heard your letter read in full - and in fact you still will.

And reading your response I see:

"Excuse me, Julie... but what got YOU into trouble..."

Got me in trouble with who? You? Oh sweetie pie I am just getting warmed up. Wait until the next flame proof undies. By the way as long as you never bring up your real name we never will.


'Cover yer eyes, I'm neked!' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:42:05 CST
Well people always complain. Obviously their current PVP model/design hasn't stopped that one bit.

I can envision an April Fools event where you sign into a battleground...loading screen.... you appear in your skivvies with talents gone. They've been locked away in a chest, and you get them back well the battleground ends. Remove racials if you want, whatever makes it fun. Give everyone a wand and go pew, pew, pew! I'd just like to see Blizzard think outside the well constructed box they've nailed themselves into when it comes to PVP.

'@ Garumba' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:44:06 CST
@ Garumba...well you seem to like to call people ignorant. Had you waited until show 24 was released (we have been working on it since before show 23.2 was released) you would have heard your letter read in full - and in fact you still will.

And reading your response I see:

"Excuse me, Julie... but what got YOU into trouble..."

Got me in trouble with who? You? Oh sweetie pie I am just getting warmed up. Wait until the next flame proof undies. By the way as long as you never bring up your real name we never will.


'Sorry, my crystal ball is in the shop!' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:51:26 CST
I'm not able to see into the future, nor read minds over great distances, so I had no way of knowing what your plans were for a future show. I did the only thing I could, which was to go on the information I had on hand and step in to defend myself against someone putting words in my mouth (which is precisely what you did). Not really sure how you can fault me for that.

Your comments lack any substance and merit, because they are wholly without logic. "He called me ignorant, so I'm going to call him ignorant" I wasn't ignorant (but I have no problem admitting when I am) so it's a baseless argument. You seem to relish in the drama, instead of a true debate, which is what I would obviously prefer. I don't "like" calling someone ignorant, but I also can't let ignorant comments slide either, especially when there's an audience to hear said comments.

Sounds like you are ready to bash what I've said, so let me offer you this...

"Is your position so weak that it cannot withstand a debate?"

'@ Seritaph - Reminds me of WC3 days' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 17:57:40 CST
I wish Blizzard allowed some player-created content like this. Give the ability to load a "custom map" like in Warcraft 3 days... where the rules of the game were whatever you wanted them to be! Want unlimited resources? BOOM done!

The only way to do this would be to create a private server, which I know a lot of people frown upon. I just wish the ability to just do crazy stuff were available in WoW. It would really mix things up... a LOT!

'Great stuff!' by Celestian
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:12:18 CST
Love the short show, was funny and entertaining. I don't get all the drama from the "Guru" but then I tend to ignore those sorta folks anyway. Bloated egos, inflated since of themselves and that sorta thing just isn't something I tend to bother with.

I also wanted to mention T3-4 in WAR is a grind, no matter how you climb the wall it's still a wall.

As to the sex restrictions to some classes in WAR, that's just from the game and probably something Games Workshop forced on Mythic. It's part of the lore of the game since way back. Would be like LOTRO having dwarven female wizards or something crazy ;) It just wouldn't fit the "history". The game isn't set in a real world... besides, who wants to see a male dark elf wearing Victoria Secret gear.

'Lore... Yes! Chaning on a whim to satisy player base... NO!' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:20:43 CST
Any game we play we are essentially "living" in that world, and abide by the restrictions laid upon us. Asking for a female of a particular class when there were no females goes against the grain of that lore, and shouldn't be allowed. I know Fran argued that since it's not a work of literature, the lore should be ignored and just to give in and grant females for all classes, but I don't agree. There are no female Orcs, because Orcs are grown, not created through sexual reproduction. Dems da rulez.

'Bow chicka wa wa!' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:31:53 CST
Booze, dwarves, sadistic elves in their underwear, asexual reproduction... sounds like some weird drug-induced 1970's porno to me.

'"It was the 70s... man"' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:33:42 CST
Yeah, I think Paul B. has mentioned that previously... But yeah, it was the 70s... oof.

'Absolutes' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:51:15 CST
Star Trek is a very lore rich franchise that evolved with the times. Back in the 60's it was very sexist. What if the constitution was never amended? Should we have just said, Demz da rulez, and continued to live by outdated laws? Things change and evolve. Perhaps Warhammer lore should do the same. I don't see the harm in it.

'@ Garumba' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:53:44 CST
@ Garumba...well you seem to like to call people ignorant. Had you waited until show 24 was released (we have been working on it since before show 23.2 was released) you would have heard your letter read in full - and in fact you still will.

And reading your response I see:

"Excuse me, Julie... but what got YOU into trouble..."

Got me in trouble with who? You? Oh sweetie pie I am just getting warmed up. Wait until the next flame proof undies. By the way as long as you never bring up your real name we never will.


'@ Seritaph' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 18:57:19 CST
Two very different things. One is real life, one is a fantasy setting. I believe to preserve that setting, it's necessary to keep the lore intact. Here's the thing though... could they find a way around the lore, and/or introduce new lore that would support changing the game? Sure they can, and honestly I'm not opposed to that. LoTRO did it by adding classes to the game, and it's been hugely popular. Done correctly, it can work. Will Gamers Workshop yield and allow that rather drastic change to be made? I would doubt it, but it's not impossible.

'Wow....I go to sleep for 6 hours' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:01:25 CST
Yeah Seritaph, I have a pipecleaner halo...:D All sparkle-y and whatnot!

Julie, I see what you're saying about the letter but we (or maybe just me) didn't know you were planning on reading the letter next show, or at least I didn't hear it but meh. Had I known that I'd have left that subject off my contribution to the Great Wall of Text up there :)

As for the genders of the classes in WAR, I figured that Mythic agreed to no female Slayers because the game is already rated Teen....having actual shirtless female dwarfs because they're trying to get a honorable death would surely bump it up to Mature.....but meh. And as to the male Witch Elves, well my lunch would be better suited to stay in my stomach please.

When it comes to the idea of 1v1, I'm an idealist who says that any class can become OP'd but you have to play it right, and 95% of the classes out there across all games haven't really been explored completely and up to date with any class changes; so any nuances that may up damage probably haven't been found yet. Rogues are just the latest victim for such exploration. In 6 months or so, it'll be another class that someone yells for a nerf bat for.

But then too, I made a Highlander Scout in DAOC so what do I know :) *adjusts the pipecleaner halo again*


'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:07:08 CST
*Throws in an angry wet badger*

'Poor Badger.....' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:12:20 CST
Getting thrown like dare I ask why?

'I may be reaching a bit...' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:35:06 CST
Thinking on it now, Warhammer lore is probably a wee bit more nutty than a pipecleaner halo. Which causes me to think, is it really that far-fetched to include female versions of the classes? People can grasp onto Warhammer lore like it was gospel, but cannot wrap their heads around the idea of females for certain classes?

By the way, have you seen the concept art and video footage of the female barbarian in Diablo III? She looks awesome!

'Space, the real-life frontier...' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:38:36 CST
Are you implying, Gurumba, that Star Trek is real life?

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:40:28 CST
*Throws in an angry wet badger*

'RL' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:45:41 CST
Of course not, but the social aspects you mentioned are.

And don't get me started with D3. I can't wait.... mmmmm.

'Pipecleaners and Slayers......' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 19:47:02 CST
Yeah the lore is definitely there, but I was just pointing out the fact that visually a half-naked dwarf and male underwear model elf would hardly help the WAR population at least in my perspective. As it is I shudder when you have the people in T1 who run in without armor for the titles (I did it too so ummm yeah lol) but to see them wherever I go? I think I'll pass >

'Pokes own eyes with pipecleaner' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2009-02-17 20:03:56 CST
Yeah, MK, what you describe sounds dicey at best when I visualize it. Given the circumstances, IF Mythic we're to even make male/female class counterparts like female slayers and male witch elves (warlock elves?), I have confidence they'd do it in good taste. I have to admit, I think their artists have done an exceptional job so far.

':D' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 20:08:30 CST
lol Yeah, I do too, but at first thought I can only shudder. Maybe if I were to see what the classes would look like as their counterparts, I'd be more relaxed with it. But as it stands everytime I think on it, I start looking for something to scrub my brain with while screaming "Mental Images!!!!!!!!!!!" and everyone looks at me weird then.....which is nothing unusual actually :)

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 20:33:20 CST
*Throws in an angry wet badger*

'Lawdy lawd!' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-17 20:37:14 CST
How many of those things do you have? I mean just having one makes me wonder... let alone like 3-4... Are you guys badger farmers on the side?

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 20:39:20 CST
*Throws in an angry wet badger*

'HAHAHAH' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-17 20:41:01 CST
Badger Farmers...too funny. For some reason when ever someone types a message (and it seem intermitant) it bounces several times. I typed the first one...the web site threw in the rest. It seems that Virgin Worlds has alot of angry wet badgers.


'lol' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-17 21:19:32 CST
I think VW is the badger farmers.....

'!!!' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-17 23:06:30 CST
The site is attacking the viewers with all of the reposts.

'reposts' by Brent
Submitted on 2009-02-18 02:47:55 CST
I really need to track down that repost bug.

'Huh?' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-18 03:34:59 CST
What repost bug?! Don't know what you're talking about.

'Huh?' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-18 03:35:02 CST
What repost bug?! Don't know what you're talking about.

'Huh?' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-18 03:35:04 CST
What repost bug?! Don't know what you're talking about.

'Ok.' by Jmo
Submitted on 2009-02-18 03:36:16 CST
hehe...sorry for the Spam, but from what I can tell, hitting "Reload" is what's causing it, possibly people reloading the page to look for new comments?

'Yup' by MagicKira
Submitted on 2009-02-18 03:47:48 CST
Instead of actually reloading it, I click on the episode everytime to refresh and it doesnt repost twenty times....Dunno beyond that lol

'New Show and contest' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-19 15:07:59 CST
Show 24 has been uploaded. It is 2 hours long but be warned - for those of a "gentle disposition" it will have an explicit rating.

For those who are interested in the first of the Warhammer Online codes to be given out - the contest will be announced with show 24.1 to follow show 24 shortly.

As a reminder here is how it will work; the idea is to give everyone interested a fair chance.

Once show 24.1 is out the contest will be announced. Within the show thread we will post a number of one of our shows. Within those shows we have placed an audio clue (that will be explained on show 24.1). The first person to solve the "clue" and email us the answer at will win the code.

Thanks to Sarc for the code.

Julie and Fran

'Not seeing it.' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-19 21:33:30 CST
I don't see 24 on VW nor on iTunes. Am I missing something?

'Uploaded but not put on the web site yet' by Julie
Submitted on 2009-02-19 22:01:00 CST
As the title says...the show is uploaded but Brent has to put it on the web site yet. It will get was only uploaded this morning. It takes awhile.


'Ahh' by Gurumba
Submitted on 2009-02-19 22:02:36 CST
I didn't know that was the process. Alright cool, look forward to hearing it.