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No Prisoners, No Mercy
Host: Julie Whitefeather & Frances Kosac
There comes a time, friends, when your favorite MMO ceases to sparkle, when even new videogames lose their luster, and the computer room becomes a prison; and all that is left are two gamers (who happen to be nuns) with a very large axe to grind. Come join Julie Whitefeather and Frances Kosac as they go to War - and along the way discuss the events of the week in the MMO industry.

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No Prisoners, No Mercy - Show 14
Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:49:00 GMT [download/play]

On this week's show our guest is Saylah from the Mystic Worlds website.

1. Introductions -  nice work if you can get it

2. War low population problems by Saylah discussed with the author

3. How now downâhealer

4. Body counts and crafting

5. Wow to War to Wow I hate you  by Saylah discussed with the author

6. War of Wars/World of Warhammer


Note: yes Fran realizes she said âorder and hordeâ together in the same sentence. Also, update on the player who leveled to 79 rapidly and was banned - hours later he was reset to level 70.


Articles discussed:

Wow to war to wow I hate you

War: Low populations problems


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Episode 14 Discussion Thread

'hehe Did she mention a certain spec needed to be successful?' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-18 20:28:09 CST
Just curious.

Still, great show guys! :)


' Sorry to add another comment..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-18 20:53:14 CST
...but I just don't get it. Your guest (and you) seem to think that WoW invented loot lust. Also, you seem to think that every single player, or even the greatest bulk of them, care only about raiding and gear. You are running with a certain crowd. And trust me, the "other side" (players that, indeed, care about fun over gear) DO exist. They are not rare. They are not hidden.

As though EQ didn't have any guilds or players that cared only about gear, as well as, players that just were playing to have fun. Did you three play EQ at all? Do you remember the horrors of that game? Even in that game, though, I managed to have fun in my way, and never thought that the entire community was a bunch of gear ho's or that somehow that community made it a bad game.

I think you all seem to confuse your bad experience with one or two, or several players, with a bad game.

But wasn't WAR just the favorite game? Now the community (or supposed lack of) is destroying IT?

Please correct me if I am wrong, please..but you seem to just be getting bored and running into some bad players and blaming the game for that.

Again, as though all MMO's (I have played almost all of them, trust me) back to 10 years ago had no issues with lack of community, loot lust, bad players, good players, not enough variance in the player base or any other issue you are bringing up with WoW.

WoW didn't invent or cause any of these issues that have been there for years. Me and my wife know: we have been playing since UO and all these issues are the same. Here's my opinion:

WOW didn't create loot lust or any of these other issues. WAR didn't solve any of those issues. You seem to be blaming the game for you getting bored or for becoming attracted to a new expansion.

Anyway, sorry again for the long comment, and understand I don't mean this in a hateful way at all. :)


'Uh What??' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-19 09:49:35 CST
No, didn't talk about any spec needing to be successful.

Of course players work at getting gear in gear dependent games. WOW just took the whole thing to a new, more heightened and fanatic level. And we didn't blame raiding for anything. The only comment about it that I recall is it being an end game option.

Lastly, you're so off base on your last comment 'blaming the game..." I'm not sure how that conclusion was reached. We were complimentary of both games. The Sisters are playing both games. I said multiple times that WOW was great and that WAR has the potential to be a great game except that the game's design requires and assumes, a larger amount if players than are actually available much of the time. That's not blaming, that's a fact.

'Easier Fix to Low Pop Affecting Crafting...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-19 10:19:44 CST
Much easier than completing changing over to a harvesting nodes mechanic, Mythic could allow players to take two gathering professions along side the one production profession. You'd be less hampered by the scarcity of the uncommon components while still having the rather passive harvesting/collection model they employed. Otherwise they need to better align the scarcity and cost of the components to the produced item to make it worth the effort and cost.

'PQs, not what they once were ... but keep the faith' by Sanjuro
Submitted on 2008-11-19 12:02:42 CST
Here I am only a quarter of the way into the cast and I stop it because Ive got to comment on this PQ/lack of population deal.

This has been a hot topic on my guild's vent lately. We feel that essentially WAR currently has half of a Looking For Group mechanic in place - it has a very good system of individuals to find open parties in thier area but it completely lacks a way for groups to find individuals. It would be wonderful if WAR had a mechanic like City of Heroes, where you could flag yourself for LFG, tick of a few descriptors of what you want to do (PQs, RvR, scenarios etc), and place a little text note on the end like "Please send tell before invite :)" - and all that info would go into a searchable list. If Mythic would implement a system like this in WAR it would go a long way in resolving the 'tumble weed' problem.

'Had to see it coming.' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-19 12:24:16 CST
A population influx on WAR was inevitable with the WoTLK expansion so close on the heels. People will flux between the two games. What WoW has going for it is new content for people hanging around bored at 70. But it has little for the new player. To really enjoy the expansions innovations, you have to be a veteran player. WAR is still all about getting new players and I think it will continue to grow as people get their WoW fix, grow tired and move on again. I'm not suggesting WAR will usurp WoW, just that the population problem will even itself out over time.

'Agree Seritaph' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-19 12:33:16 CST
I have to agree that something to help find people across the Tiers would be helpful. Traveling takes time and zone hopping your Tier in search of other players is time that many people want bother to try. I think this actually leads to more people doing Scenarios because you're given the appropriate amount of players for the encounter without any effort on your part. If you're already in a group great. if you're not grouped the game provides the additional people needed to form one. :-)

You've set aside time to play and it's just easier to do Scenarios than run around looking for other players, when you might not find anyone who wants to do what you want/need to do anyway. Anytime there is a PVE group going in our guild for my rank, I do it because the opportunity can be very far and few. I do things I don't need to do. I work on chapters that are much too high for me. i do it because there's no telling when I'll get the chance again. I can solo and do Scenarios any ole time. anything they can do to help people who actually want to do their content find each other will improve the overall gaming experience.

'sober this time' by Token
Submitted on 2008-11-19 13:03:40 CST
Enjoyable show. I particularly like the more opinionated sections and rants that are your personal perspective, it does something most podcasts don't which is 'ENTERTAIN'.

' Let me re-listen and find the quote. I'll re-answer in a sec..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-19 15:22:22 CST
Not that I want to put out your words, but I am hoping you can clear up what I heard. I could be wrong.

As far as blaming the game, you say " WOW just took the whole thing to a new, more heightened and fanatic level."

So, are you saying it's the COMMUNITY, or the game? All I am saying is that I am confused now by the sisters output as well as your comments.

Look, the fantastic Sisters went so far as to say that they were one of two WAR podcast on Virginworlds what...a few weeks ago? That's fine, but I have a hard time believing that was has changed is WAR, or even the lack of community. (WAR has not stated that they are losing mass numbers...some server issues? Sure..but overall didn't they just claim they gained more?)

Here's what I think happened: you guys were playing WoW, and having a good time. WAR comes along, promising something different, which it was in some ways.

So, you quit WOW (or maybe a little before) and get turned on by WAR. That's cool, we all check out new games.

But the Sisters seemed to go further, by (yes) taking some shots at WOW or it's community, as though you couldn't just drop into WOW and have a grand time without running into rampant loot lust or bad players or boring content.

They seemed to me to be saying that WAR had everything that WOW didn't, or at least they were doing something different. As though a pvp game would somehow lead to a freer game society (which in fact most pvp games lead to smack talking and the same ole' chats about skill.)

Then, as expected, the new expansion came out, and now all the WAR lovers seem to be making excuses for why they won't be playing WAR, but they never say what they should: "I am just attratced to some new content in WOW." Instead, they will blame it on the LACK of community or the mistake of making PQ's so player dependant or whatever...

As far as saying that the Sisters cannot talk bad about WOW: when my wife made comments (and I made one I think) asking to stop taking potshots at WOW, it was like this:

Sisters: Honda's are bad cars.

Us: No, they're not. Stop taking pot shots.

Sisters: We can take pot shots if we want!

Us: Ok, I am not defending Honda, I am defending logic. We all know that Honda's, especially for their price range, are the best cars out there with the highest resell amount.

Sisters: (A few weeks later) Honda's RULE!

Also, as far as why I said the "spec" thing: the sisters got into about how WAR didn't force you to be a certain spec in order to succeed. It didn't depend on all that ole' WOW model stuff.

Our point was that it doesn't matter whether it's gear, or skill, or knowledge of lore, or how many troops you have, but every game will have, in some sections, what the players consider important to "succeeding" in a game. Then, on this show, you are talking about how some players tell you that some classes aren't proper healers, or how certain classes do certain things: you are showing that even WAR has it's RULES, according to some players. Some players in WOW say that epics are. Some say that it's level or arena rating.

In other words,

A) WAR was never different from any other game, save for the small differences.

B) WOW is not a bad game, but the Sisters seemed to say so, or at the very least needed to differentiate between community and game, and now are back to WOW.

C) All this is fine, and typical of a gamer: we all do this, we love to game! :)

Anyway, sorry for the long comment. I'll go try to find that quote.


'Here it is...' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-19 15:26:36 CST
"...I'm using a DOT spec, to keep myself damage over time specced, to keep myself very mobile, so that spec allows me to have a lot of instant I'll never be the top damage.."

That's a rough quote. Again, I hate to be putting you on the spot for a comment you might have made off the cuff, seriously, but I was just confused.


'Clarificiation' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-19 16:01:45 CST
I didn't say it was needed to be successful, I prefer it because it's mobile. It like a DOT spec'd Warlock in WOW. It's not the most ideal for PVE and might not out damage others in PVP but it gives me mobility. I'm not sure how that turns into needing a specific spec to be successful. Many players go for the direct damage spec but that's not my particular playing style.

You're attempting to read way more into the conversation that what exists. I was out of WOW before WAR came along with no plans of playing WAR. I left WOW over WOW. I'd gone back to EQ2 until I decided what I wanted to play and I knew it wasn't going to be WOW, and didn't have intentions of playing WoTLK. Additionally, I had no preconceived ideas about WAR. It was populated with log in queues when I started and you could get groups everywhere and now you can't. That is a huge concern in a game that assumes you can passively participate in groups to complete content.

Mythic doesn't need to come out and say anything at all. Read the blogs of people who are playing and there's a common thread - not enough players and MANY OF THE SERVERS. They've started optional server moves with incentives off of the low population servers. The server I play on was a destination server. The incentives came and went with no noticeable increase in player population.

I think you're taking parts of conversations and trying to seam them together to a conclusion which doesn't exist and wasn't being made. But if a conclusion is needed I'd say it's, "Lots of great things in WOW but not enough to tempt me back. However, the Sisters are going back for the reasons they stated. Lots of great things in WAR. It's where I'm staying but we need more players or Mythic needs to adjust some of the content mechanics. I enjoy playing a game where the best loot is attainable individually and the epic loot is distributed by the game based on contribution and probability, instead of the players fighting over it."

'That's a big thing on yer chest!' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-19 16:45:29 CST
Amazing Beau. That's a wall of text that I don't think even a Tier 4 Black Orc could smash through!

It's my opinion the sisters would openly admit both games are amazing and fun. In fact, they probably have already. I think you're misinterpreting emotional venting of frustration with a game element as, "I hate the game; it stinks; I'm never going back!" Having followed the podcast from the beginning, I never got the impression they'd not return to visit WoW with the release of the expansion. In fact, I've been waiting to hear their impressions.

I don't see Saylah's comment as being one to take an elitist spec attitude, like the kind you might encounter in WoW (i.e. We don't want a Discipline Priest in this raid, you can't join. Or you must have gear that gives a 500 bonus to your dps or we won't take you.). I think Saylah is more or less sharing a strategy that she finds successful to her specific play-style. People can continue to defend, deny and sidestep the issue, but that kind of elitist spec discrimination is a real downer for many players who want to see and enjoy content that they're banished from by other players. WoW at the high level (and it doesn't take too long to get there anymore) for the majority of players is all about the spec and gear, plain and simple.

'Yeah, what he/she said...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-19 16:57:11 CST
Seritaph gets to speak for me because that is exactly what I meant to say but clearly to close to the conversation to cleanly articulate the explanation. LOL I'm off to shampoo carpets. Not what I had planned when I sat down at my gaming PC after doing my prescribed bit of writing for the day, but the WAR servers are down for a patch. See you in the Factory if you dare! *Flexes DOT casting muscles*

'Oh no, I was misunderstood maybe? ' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-19 17:05:51 CST
I didn't mean to imply that she was sounding elitist or anything bad! lol In fact, we enjoyed her and love the show...seriously.

I love lists, so here we go:

a) The Spec issue: The Sisters have talked in recent shows about WAR not making the player worry about spec. Then their guest comes on here and mentions a spec. Yes, you did not say "You NEED this spec to succeed." Here's what you said: "There ARE specs...I use one. (This is something almost opposite of what the Sisters seemed to be saying. They didn't argue with you, so I imagine that specs are indeed valued and needed by SOME. (Sorry for the caps, we need italics.)

But you still are saying that you need that spec to be successful. Granted, it is in YOUR eyes, being that you use it to "do your job" which was to put pressure on the healers. Doing a job is not something that someone says who is not following some kind of rule.

b) I am not saying that there are no population "issues." I am not saying Mythic is not aware of it. I am saying that they are having to make adjustments, which is common to any MMO save WOW, because WOW beats all. WOW adds servers, others eventually take away.

c) I am not saying that you OR the Sisters hated on WOW to the point that that well...hate it. I am saying that if you listen to the last few shows they definitely dog on WOW. But then, once some new content comes out, they are rejuvinated (sp?) in WOW. They didn't seem to admit this. They seem to want to put the two into a competition (as though WOW was somehow worried) to make themselves feel better about getting into a new game.

They could've just said: "I'm bored with WOW, OH! WAR is pretty! Let's play that for a while until the expansion comes out!"

d) The elitist gear whore attitude is in ANY game. I'll explain it further:

In WOW, it is EPICS.

In WAR, it is SPEC or RATING.

In EVE, it is SKILL POINTS. (again, sorry for the caps for emphasis)


And so on and so on.

The point is, in every game since the beginning, there have been sections of players that play by the "rules" and those that make up their own. The Sisters seemed to be upset at meeting players that (surprise) played by the rules of YOU MUST HAVE EPIX. As though they had never seen those players since the dawn of MMO's.

"WoW at the high level (and it doesn't take too long to get there anymore) for the majority of players is all about the spec and gear, plain and simple." I understand that you have allowed this rule of the game to be so solid. I am at the high level, and it has never been about the gear. I know an entire guild of players that do not care about that above fun.

If you want to let that define how you play, go ahead. But here's the thing: those players, out there getting their gear, have nothing at all to do with you when your out having fun. You know why? Gear is endless. There is no death. MOB's respawn. They are not taking something from you, or affecting you in anyway! :)

Yet, Sister Julie has proven what I am saying: she has found a great guild to play with...a section of the game that is NOT those "bad" players that they seemed to think ruined the game for them.

I assure you all, those types of "good" players are WAYYY easier to find in WOW, simply out of SIZE, than in WAR, which soon (like I said from the beginning) will turn into a sleaze fest of homophobic, racist "X-Box Live" type chatter of "You SUCK noob, get some SKILLZ!"

Now, as far as you not going back to WOW, already had 5 accounts..I think you have given them enough cash, and a player that enjoyed it to that point will more than likely go back even just for a few months.

If you do, you can join my wife's guild, seriously. Or, if you play any of the SOE games, I play them ALL. lol

Or EVE, or RYZOM OMG I love Ryzom.

Ok I'll stop now.


'My Chaotic Tentacled Wall of Text' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-19 19:27:35 CST
I've tried. Different servers, looking in forums, being in guilds. Nearly everyone I've encountered goes on about spec, gear or both. And it's all for the purpose of playing endgame content.

I don't define this as my play-style (though I've been tempted) and I don't deny there are players like Beau who are not about this (that's why I like his show--it's good, give it a listen), but I did say this is the case for the majority, and I stand by it. Beau can point to specific guilds and players, but out of a population of 11 million I have the think they are a small exception. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong about this though.

I think the sisters have given both WAR and WoW equal bashing, and love. It's my opinion that it's their passion for these games that causes them to dog on WoW one week, and dog on WAR another. If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother. What's to confess or admit?

"They are not taking something from you, or affecting you in anyway! :)"

I disagree. Say I'm level 70, and I want to run Karazan. But I can't get a group because I'm Feral spec, and nearly everyone is telling you that you need to be Balance. In fact, you actually get numerous tells when looking for group that say, "sorry can't use you unless you're a boomkin." That you could change, but you can't immediately change all the armor and weapons you've built up. Next question you'll probably get asked is, "well what's your dps?" And really...why should I have to change?

Point? Yes, I could go hunt the same respawning mobs, get endless gear, but that's not exploring Karazan. I could make my own fun! I could eat a deviate fish, turn into a pirate, ride the boat back and forth pretending to be Captain Knottybeard of the high seas. WHOO HOO! Hey guess what... still not seeing Karazan.

I guess the only way I'm going to see Karazan is to gear up in battlegrounds and spec so that I meet the criteria set forth by the players who DO run Karazan and be accepted into the majority. Either that or get extremely lucky and find someone who says, "hey sounds fun! i don't care if we wipe, let's go do it!"

......BWAHAHA!, oh I crack me up. *wipes a tear of laughter from his eye*

All that cynicism aside, I do believe WoW is a great game. And if you can find a good community, it can be an incredibly-amazing-super-awesome-happy-time-fun game. In fact, for me, that pretty much applies to any MMO.

' Well...' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-19 20:29:22 CST let's say you do want to see Kara. Here's a couple points about end-game stuff liek that.

1) My wife's guild is by far not a raiding guild. They are a "social" guild, but picked up some raiding here and there. They stretched it to two nights a week, and even managed to stop doing it after players were getting bored and some serious. They kept a handle on it, and so can any guild.

2) Why do you want to go to Kara? Is it for exploration purposes, or, let's be honest...for loot? (Or a chance at it?) Think about this: the first guilds to approach the first dungeons in any game had to start somewhere. They started by asking for a group, and adding friends and building from there. And aren't they just going after the same thing you are? Aren't you just a few trips into Kara away from being just like them?

3) We are both estimating, but my wife's guild and our time in the game (years) has allowed us to see and met many many people and guilds. Also, our server was (at one time) one of the busiest there was, and still can have a line to get in. I am simply stating that I have met plenty of people (not a minority, but the opposite) that would gladly pick up and try an adventure.

If you are talking about the small sphere (yes, small, especially compared to the mass amount of activities that WOW has) of raiding, then yes, you will run into players being worried about gear above all. After all, the purpose of raidING (not goingto a raid, but repeated raiding) is to obtain gear for you and your friends. That's why I do not RAID, but go to raids here and there.

Right now there is a debate going on about the difficulty of raiding in WOW. Some say it is too easy, some say too hard. Neither are right or wrong.

It is just that for every bad experience in the largest MMO in North America, there are the same good experiences, or the population simply would not stick around.

The good outweighs the bad. Players make decisions.

Come to Perenolde...we'll find you a group! :)

'Just wow (and not the game)' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-11-19 21:23:33 CST
Well until Brent fixes the website so I can access from the Internet protocol address again I can't access Virgin Worlds (except by Rss Feed which doesn't include comments) through our firewall. So I came home to what has caused the quote of the week:

'That's a big thing on yer chest!' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-19 16:45:29 CST
Amazing Beau. That's a wall of text that I don't think even a Tier 4 Black Orc could smash through!

and Seritaph might I say to that comment...hahahaha

It will take me awhile to get through all this but I see a possibility here. We cna have our own version of Jerry Springer here if all of the respondants to this weeks show are willing. What say to all being guests on an upcoming show to debate all this???

Truly, Truly a war of wars

p.s. don't jump to conclusions about the "new guild" 1.) it aint new its part of a group of 14,000 gamers I belong to 2.) I haven't attempted to raid anything with them

'firewall' by Brent
Submitted on 2008-11-19 22:38:21 CST
Uh, I hate to say this Julie, but if you at-work network doesn't let you hit VirginWorlds, me swinging the server over to the new host might not help. What's the kind way of saying this? Oh yeah, um, it's not me, it's you - I mean, your boss or something.

'/agree with Julie' by LealaTurkey
Submitted on 2008-11-19 22:59:02 CST
I think you are right about discussing this in a better venue. I hate trying to explain myself in comments and being misunderstood so I've been steering clear. haha Tho I hope it wouldn't actually be Jerry Springer style. =P

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-11-20 01:03:35 CST
@ Brent. I used to be able to get at it by going to an IP instead of a URL. then when the server host did what you said they did in an email that stopped. Now it goes to some .php page. Kinda funny.

@ Leala Turkey: Be careful what you agree with. I never said I thought there was some better venue. I still have been a bit busy to read through the wall of text but its just fine and dandy to discuss the show here...that after all is what it is for. I just thought a live show might make for an incredibly interesting show.

'Woah' by Jmo
Submitted on 2008-11-20 04:24:22 CST
lol..I finally got around to listening to this weeks episode and came here to comment and am amazed to see all of the posts so far. Seems like there's a friendly little tug of war going on. Well, great show as always for starters.

@Julie and Leala - Am I seeing a Virginworlds Round Table in the future? That would rock! Everyone would be able to voice their opinions without having to try and figure out how it sounds in text.

--Idea on this: How about a Live show so listeners can put in their perspectives and have it discussed right there (just a thought, not exactly sure how well it would work)

@Saylah - Great job guest hosting! I also really enjoy your blog. It's great reading the blogs of others to really spark interest and ideas. I've only started reading recently and wished I had found it before (which is odd, because I thought I'd checked out almost all of the VW linked blogs). Keep up the good work!

One thing I am going to chip in on here (as I have not fully torn through the walls of text) is on the Spec issue. I think what Saylah and the Sisters were getting at was what has been said all along in the show, and that is that Spec is not a requirement in WAR, but a personal choice. She wants to be DoT specced, so she is. But there are plenty of other ways to play your class and all are equally important with no "You have to be this spec to succeed" attitude from the player base. That's how I like it.

Now, like the others, I've been fairly absent from WAR lately. WotLK brought be back to WoW for a bit, and some RL friends have dragged me along into DDO, but I don't plan on giving up WAR anytime soon either. All the games are fun and I don't feel that you HAVE to just play one and can enjoy a multitude of games...the only problem is the price starts adding up after a while.

Anyway, sorry for my own personal wall of text.


'Hi JMO' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-11-20 07:04:33 CST
HI JMO, missed seeing you around. I will admit that I too have been playing quite a bit of Wrath of the Lich King lately. but I will be back playing a good deal of war this weekend. This has been a bad, bad, bad, bad, bad week at work (did I say bad) but I look forward to seeing you soon.

As far as a "live show" on the issues above (I still have not worked through the wall of text either) I had in mind Beau and Saylah - and yes Saylah did a great job on the show.


'Nevermind....' by LealaTurkey
Submitted on 2008-11-20 09:39:51 CST
Forget it Julie. You just want to argue and I'm sorry but I don't do that, not in a bunch of comments. Its kinda funny. I can't even say the simplest thing (like that talking is better than typing) without you disagreeing and proving me wrong.

I'm sure you'll find a way to twist this around too and throw it back at me and make me look like a jerk here and on whoever else's blog you see fit to bring this up at.

I'm really glad that all we are talking about is a bunch of silly video games and nothing important.


'Thanks JMO' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-20 11:04:17 CST
I enjoyed the episode with you as well. Maybe the Sisters will invite us on together one day. :-)

'In response to the previous reponse's response...!?' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-20 13:50:41 CST
First off thanks for your comments, friendly discussion and willingness to help me find a group. You always bring up good points and creative discussion. :) And just because we disagree Julie, doesn't mean I want to play out a Jerry Springer episode. I'm pretty sure Beau is not the father... oh wait, that's something else.

1) Raiding guild? No, I'm just talking about grouping. My comments don't really refer to your wife, her guild, or anyone in it. I'm sure everyone in there is a great person of quality, and they're a shining example of what I'd be looking for. But even if her guild is 20,000 members strong, that is less than 2/1000ths of WoW's total population. On a game as large as WoW that's a needle in a haystack.

I've met nice people of quality in WoW too. Been in a few guilds, made terrific friendships. Great fun to socialize with, but difficult to group with because they all followed the game's core mechanic. Which I've already stated. It's not a slam against WoW or the players, it's just what it is.

2) My personal reason for going to Kara is to experience it. The Blizzard designers put a lot of work into the dungeons, scripting events, boss mobs and environments. I'd still like to see Molten Core, Stratholme, or Onyxia's Lair for the same reason; things I never got to do because I did not rush to follow the WoW status quo. I don't know too many people who'd want to visit these fantastic old world places anymore. Why? Because the gear drops in BC and now probably LK are better.

3) Sure we're estimating, from our own experiences. I'm happy that you and Leala have a more positive one.

WoW's success is undeniable. That I will not argue.

'Dumbfounded...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-20 14:33:31 CST
By any comments trying to assert that WOW isn't one of the most gear and spec dependent games it's a bit much. Even if there is a section of the player base that doesn't subscribe to the behavior the majority does.

Warriors and Priests have been screaming for years about having to maintain Raid specs that gimp them in PVP or in PVE farming. Players have posted numerous threads asking that the respec cost model be changed because some classes have to respec multiple times a day if they want to raid, solo PVE, BG type PVP and Arenas. It has gone on long enough that isn't Blizzard implementing a mechanic to allow players to maintain two specs that can be swapped for a cost??? You don't have names like LOLadin, Boomkin and 3-Minute Mage without the existence of very heavy focus on class specs.

There are specs in WAR they just don't play the same level of importance and are rarely if ever, used as a reason to exclude a player from a group. You have players criticizing each other on the WOW forums over their gear, specs and enchants via that lovely thing called the Armory. i was there. I played WOW. And don't get me started on the whole Welfare Epics drama that exists. That's the comparison that was reflected in the side comments. In WAR my spec is my own business and no one really cares what that spec is but me. We form PVE instance groups and look for 2 healing classes, 2 tanks and DPS. We don't care or ask about how they are spec'd. The DPS classes don't have to be any specfic combination - don't need a hunter, rogue and warlock. You just need warm bodies. It's that freedom from restriction, questioning and having to defend yourself and character choices that are absent from WAR and it is refreshing.

Does any of that mean that WOW sucks and WAR is great or vice versa? Nope, it just means it's different and will suit different types of players well...differently.

'Dumbfounded...' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-20 14:39:47 CST
By any comments trying to assert that WOW isn't one of the most gear and spec dependent games it's a bit much. Even if there is a section of the player base that doesn't subscribe to the behavior the majority does.

Warriors and Priests have been screaming for years about having to maintain Raid specs that gimp them in PVP or in PVE farming. Players have posted numerous threads asking that the respec cost model be changed because some classes have to respec multiple times a day if they want to raid, solo PVE, BG type PVP and Arenas. It has gone on long enough that isn't Blizzard implementing a mechanic to allow players to maintain two specs that can be swapped for a cost??? You don't have names like LOLadin, Boomkin and 3-Minute Mage without the existence of very heavy focus on class specs.

There are specs in WAR they just don't play the same level of importance and are rarely if ever, used as a reason to exclude a player from a group. You have players criticizing each other on the WOW forums over their gear, specs and enchants via that lovely thing called the Armory. i was there. I played WOW. And don't get me started on the whole Welfare Epics drama that exists. That's the comparison that was reflected in the side comments. In WAR my spec is my own business and no one really cares what that spec is but me. We form PVE instance groups and look for 2 healing classes, 2 tanks and DPS. We don't care or ask about how they are spec'd. The DPS classes don't have to be any specfic combination - don't need a hunter, rogue and warlock. You just need warm bodies. It's that freedom from restriction, questioning and having to defend yourself and character choices that are absent from WAR and it is refreshing.

Does any of that mean that WOW sucks and WAR is great or vice versa? Nope, it just means it's different and will suit different types of players well...differently.

'My wall of text' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-11-20 15:00:14 CST
The way MMO communities work is that over time like minded people tend to congregate together into guilds and friends lists.
People that play the game in a more casual equation of explore content > explore loot tend to not PUG very often since they don't feel they need to run instances over and over to get gear up. People that play the game for loot tend to congregate together as well but they don't like to "waste" time ingame waiting for guildies and friends to log on to gear up.
Because of this, people that avidly LFG for raids and level cap groups, consist largely of the playertype that is concerned with your DPS numbers and spec. They don't know you at all so are using these statistics to get a feel for your playing skill and style, whether right or wrong. They are not interested in exploring, they are interested getting a balanced group together that will give them the greatest chance at loot for their time in game.
The other playertype will wait patiently for guildies and friends to log on, perhaps crafting, perhaps chatting, perhaps cybering,... When their friends log on they build a group and do something. To those people your exact spec and gear won't matter as much (although you need to have a spec to fill some sort of archetype role in some cases).

Basically what I am saying is that the further down the scale of loot worship you go the more problems with "What's your spec. What's your DPS. What's your AC, etc..." you will have.

In the early stages of WAR you didn't notice this issues because a) people hadn't learned to turn open group options off and b) people hadn't segregated into the different playstyle guilds yet. As the game ages you will see more and more of it.

Every MMO has both types of players and a infinite number of variations between. I believe that six months from now WAR will actually have a larger number of the "lolz noob. ur gear sux." playerbase due to it's PvP emphasis. PvP emphasis breeds gear and spec min-maxing because PvPers don't like to lose to other players and will look for any advantage they can squeeze out of their class. Whether it is gear, spec, or groupmates.

Regarding EQ2. This is probably one of the best game options for people that want to explore, play with friends, and socialize if you are not a gear hound. There is a lot in the game to do that has nothing to do with running dungeons for loot. So much so that a whole section of the playerbase hardly ever sets foot in dungeon instances.

'At least now I get it..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-20 17:21:43 CST
..I thought you were more of a roleplayer/crafter, but it seems like you are one of those players that thinks that every dot of crit chance has to be perfected.

If I am wrong, let me know, but here is my evidence:

a) You worry about those players that say that, to the point that you seem to think that those are RULES of the game, as though the game cannot be enjoyed without them.

b) You seem to think that spec heavy and gear ho's are the greatest mass of the community, which leads me to believe that those players are the ones you surround yourself with. After all, why would you value their opinion?

As far as no one caring about "specs" in WAR: do you honestly think that every time I went into Arena or into a battleground, or every time I walked into a dungeon or into a group that the players were like "What's your SPEC? I Don't THINK so."

Like the above poster said, give WAR time to pinpoint exactly what some might think is all important to success, then many many players (possibly like your self?) can think that those "rules" are needed in order to simply play a video game.

Here is the point: I could come on the show and argue with you guys (although the Jerry Springer thing was silly) all day. We both have our evidence: players that we have known, come across or played with that seemed to think one way or the other. On my side I have my wife's guild with over a hundred unique players, her podcast that gets a ton of listeners, and all the players I have run across over the 3 years of playing, as well as the players I have met over 10 years of playing MMO's.

And here is what MY evidence shows me: you are either a player that THINKS there are rules to follow, and tries to follow those rules, and thinks that the entire community follows those rules, or you are like this:

a) The "Naked Troll" guy: he played naked. No armor, and still reached max level, and had a damn good time. Haven't checked on him in a while, though.

b) Myself: My armor set was, until I started getting new drops in the expansion, a matching set of green level pink-colored armor. I still killed other players, won duels, went to dungeons and leveled like every one else (albeit a little slower because I take my time in the game, like all my games..look at my Immersion Project.)

c) My wife:L she has a full set of purples that she has gained here and there, she riads, did Kara, Arena, and is now on her way to 80. She runs an incredible guild and has a huge friends list. She is SO knowledgeable about the game (she doesn't nothing half-ass) but chooses which "rules" to listen to and which to ignore.

YOU make the choice. Even if the ENTIRE community SAYS that you have to have certain specs or certain gear in order to "succeed" (which has 400 definitions, as well, so in a certain, pinpointed definition like "must have all epics" definition then yes, you might have to follow certain "rules" ) you still must make a choice as to how you want to play.

Again, the game did not do this, nor the community. You did this, and you are the one that obeys those rules.

I was questing last night, and got into a group with a VERY well outfitted Hunter. We killed our stuff, talked a bit and went our separate ways. HE did not finish faster than me. His .2 percent crit amount made no difference. Neither of us died, and we both had a good time.

I play how I want.


'One Shining Example....' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-20 17:48:57 CST
In a sea of millions doesn't change the opinions or experiences that others have had in the same game. And hell it's not like anything that was said, hasn't been said before about WOW, so I'm still lost on the significance of it having been said on that particular podcast. Moreover, why the statements had to mean anything more that what they were. Those impressions or opinions do not define who we are as gamers no matter how much you think you now know the people who said them. Sorry, people are too diverse to fit into that neat little bubble being built in someone's head. Read a blogger's blog if you want to know them.

And no, I don't agree that WAR specs will get to that level because there is no way to exclude players from the end game RVR raiding. It's a show up as you are party. You don't have to be invited. There's nothing barring you from participating or having a chance and the gear if that's what you covet. You don't need a guild or a group for that matter. Being in a guild will certainly make it easier but it is possible to achieve without one. So it's just a bit more freedom and why is anyone who is not playing WAR concerned if others think that's a plus.

In WAR, you can participate in end game city raids without being in a guild. Consequently, you can spec and be geared however you want. Last time I played WOW, no one was pugging Black Temple.

'No, but they PUG Kara..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-20 18:07:08 CST KARA the elitist of the eite of all the dungeons in WOW? No, but it's no where near the bottom. In fact, many guilds had many months of issues with Kara before it was stratted out.

Just this week our friend was in a Kara pug group. They did ok.

Do you think that players in WOW cannot just jump into a battleground? Or do they have to meet some sort of prerequisite?

Again, though you are talking about one very ver specific example in a million examples: raiding. You are the one that brought up raiding, as though raiding is the end all be all of these games. Again, more rules. You DO know that Blizzard themselves came out and said that most players do NOT raid to that point?

Also, forums are never ever a good barometer of the community. It is a common MMO statistic that about 10 percent of gamers post on MMO forums. Most players are simply playing. I know no one that posts on those forums unless they are 15 years old. That's like using's forums as a source of news.

Like I said, you are the one that has now brought up raiding or "end game" content as a source of your measurement for the community.

Or do you believe that raiding IS the true measurement of a game? Out of all those levels, all those thousands of quests...(you know, all those things you do while wearing whatever you can scrape together) all of those things mean nothing compared to the exactly precise measurement of success that raiding is?

Even according to your example, you are excluding all earlier content from WAR. You are not saying "At the lower levels, gear does not matter or spec does not matter, only at higher levels/ end game raiding."

So we should discount all that content too?

Like I said, it's cool that you are that type of player, there is nothing wrong with enjoying the game by valuing math and specs. I know a good deal of players that do. My co-host was one of the coolest players I have met, and all she did practically was raid, 5 or 6 nights a week. I found nothing wrong with her playstyle, as long as she liked it.

Sister Julie has, on this show, talked about how she finally found a guild of decent human beings! (As though every server is filled with only one guild of nice folks that don't worry about gear and specs) As though the entire 11 million person strong community of WOW can somehow be defined at ALL even if you played 7 nights a week for 3 years. The only thing you would do is be get to know your server better.

And as far as those impression defing to me what kind of player you are: do you mean to tell me that in WOW, as you played on your 5 accounts, that you did not value spec and gear over everything else? Did you raid heavily? Did you worry about gear, loot, crit chance?

If I am wrong, tell me. I am just going off what I heard: you talking about how the entire community (or at least the vast majority of them) is only concerned about gear. So you mean to tell me that if the entire community said that there was no moon, would you believe them?

'Again, it's easy to know a blogger..' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-20 18:30:33 CST
A few sound bites and comments don't the blogger make - don't make the gamer either. They have blogs that illustrate who they are as gamers.

I mentioned Black Temple as a single example. Arena's, the other option for end game, also has all sorts of player inflicted restrictions and requirements - minimum resists, classes and specs.

BGs were the shining example of free-for-all and what I loved most about WOW. Of course, I loved it more before it got tied to phat loot grinds and people stopped doing the massive in-world battles. All of WAR is a free-for-all beyond needing the classic class trinity. The spec, gear and even levels for that matter, are barely considered and I like that about WAR, that's pretty much all there is to it.

'Sorry if I hurt your feelings..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-20 21:05:03 CST
..this whole thing started because of this show, not because of you. I am wondering what part of Northrend is interesting enough to pull the ever-posting Sister Julie away from THIS one.

But here's what it all comes down to:

I am not saying you cannot play how ever you want, or get burnt out or whatever. I do not think for a second that you would give a crap about what I think, or should.

But the whole discussion started because of statements made on this show (and some in the past) that seemed to be saying that WOW has somehow created this community of gear hounds, stat lovers and crit-chasers.

My argument is that no, the game didn't create anything.

You were one of those players that created that participated in that environment at one time, and this is not by my assumption. You have had a blog for a while, and I have read it. And I like the blog.

Maybe it is like that movie Fight Club: the main dude (I hated that movie, but it's a good example) ends up wanting to destroy the worst part of himself, and what he created.

Anyway, sorry again. Trust me, I do not take this too seriously. I am simply a dude that started to call out a usually (brilliant) loud mouth, and got into it with you.


'My Personal Opinion' by Jmo
Submitted on 2008-11-21 01:45:06 CST
This is for everyone who is seemingly bickering back and forth (no, that is not an attack at anyone, just a third party observation). I hope you will take this seriously and at least consider it.

There are obvious contradicting views being expressed here and I'm feeling that offense is being taken by both sides because of the blockade that is text. It's hard to get your true meanings out when trying to type, especially on a touchy subject. I REALLY think you guys should have a podcast discussion.

My idea for this would be for it to be a Round-Table discussion on the topics at hand. Everyone is given their turn to speak their mind and give their opinions, without someone cutting them off. They will be able to debate points and let their views and expressions be known.

In the end, we are all members of the VW family and mature, understanding, adults. I don't feel anyone is here to put anyone else down, nor tell them that their opinions don't matter, as they are just that, opinions.

I think the people who should sit down are Julie, Saylah, Beau, Leala, and a moderator. I will personally volunteer my services to host/moderate if needed, but I also think it would possibly make a good episode of Shut Up, We're Talking, if Darren and Karen were willing. Again, this is just my opinion, take it as you will.

What do you think?

'Nahh..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-21 09:40:56 CST
..I have my own show to work on, and I can talk about it on there with my wife.

Thing is, I wasn't offended, am not excited or mad, and as I write this I am sitting here with the same calmness that I had during the entire time.

After all, I spend a lot of time on the Vanguard forums, and if you can deal with that, you can deal with anything! lol

If someone is wondering what was said that was SO offensive, go back and read everything I have typed, very slowly. The one thing I do really well is explain, as good as text can be used for that, what I am trying to say.

I will clear up a few points:

a) I used the word "elitist of the elite" to show how Kara is NOT the top of the dungeon pyramid. I DID NOT use the word towards her, at all.

b) I was asking her what kind of player she was, and made assumptions based on her blog and on what she has said on her old podcast as well as what was said on this show. She doesn't need to clarify, or probably doesn't care to, and she shouldn't. The questions I have mean nothing to anyone, and shouldn't.

c) This whole thing (as usual) started off as something REALLY small. That thing? This show accusing WOW of creating, fostering, encouraging or forcing players to be a bunch of assholes.

You guys DO know that they have known for years and years that in order to get a proper sampling (check with the recent "polling" done during the election process) you need to have at least 1,000 RANDOM people? Anything below that will generally not be accurate, unless of course you are dealing with a community of LESS that 1,00 people.

The ladies on the show have met (and I will be VERY generous here) 500 players. (No way they met 500, but still.) They have met and joined MAYBE 20 guilds.

The truth is, they are like most players: they have their friends list, and have been part of few enough guilds to count on one hand.

Yet all the ladies assume that the entire community must be based on these examples.

Yet Sister Julie met a great guild.

My final point: the guest SEEMED (she has never clarified) to used to be one of those players that raided, had certain specs and valued phat loot and raiding.

The exact players that are supposed to be part of this "jerk" community.

That's it. Irony.


'Not all endgame players are the same' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-11-21 10:21:57 CST
One thing that I have noticed over the years is that when you take a step back and look at the top two or three guilds on any server they are usually quite different in personality.
There is inevitably a "elitist jerk" guild that think they are God's gift to the server and try to make sure everyone knows it.
There is usually a nearly equally vocal guild that is taking on the same content, expect their members to be well geared good players, but are friendly, active, and social towards the server in general.
Then there is usually a top guild that quietly sticks to themselves and works through the content without most of the people on the server even knowing what they are killing unless they are inspected.

Unfortunately, you will forget about playing with playing with and dealing with people for guild type two and three but will remember the sour taste in your mouth from dealing with people fron guild type one for a long long time.
Good behaviour is expected so not remembered, bad behaviour is remembered.

Then there are the elitist jerk wannabes and they are usually the worst. They have the crappy attitude but not the knowledge or gear to back it up.

'Shaking Head @ Beau' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-11-21 10:29:11 CST
Seriously Beau. Why are you trying to be a jerk? You comments have been nothing but snide. For some reason you want people to respect your opinion, but yet you cannot respect others.

You put out these pseudo facts that you whipped up (You don't work for Blizzard do you?) and expect people to value it, when you are being rude in return. Everyone has opinions and you have yours, but you are being rude about it. You were invited to have a discussion, but you turn it down and act like you have something better to do than waste your time.

I agree with the fact that WoW encouraged the "LOOT Whore". Sure it wasn't created by Blizzard, but it surely wasn't discourage, it was quite the opposite. In WoW gear means everything. You can have the less skilled beat the skilled just by having superior gear.

Take a queue from your wife and stop posting replies here, before you further damage you already questionable integrity.

'Out of line BurntSushi IMO' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-11-21 11:20:29 CST
I've read the entire comments section and Beau hasn't been rude at any point in the entire discussion. Just because people don't like what he has to say doesn't mean he is rude for saying it.

He doesn't want to be involved in, what has been suggested as, a "Jerry Springer" podcast discussion. I don't blame him.

This entire topic has come from a guest host briefly discussing her PvP mobility "spec". Nothing wrong with that but the show has previously beat on WoW about specs, etc....

For the past few episodes the show has consistently critisized WoW and it's playerbase and then in this episode suddenly the hosts are playing the game again.

WoW did not create loot whoredom but MMOs will be about loot and levels for most people until a entirely different system is developed. Blaming a game for it's playerbase and stereotyping it's playerbase as elitish idiots based on a very vocal minority was, and is, wrong.

If a person finds themselves in a group or situation where people are being rude and disrespectful they should take a step back and consider why they have put themselves in a position to be in that situation.
If someone is walking down a dark alley at 2AM in a bad part of town and get mugged most people would go "Well yeah idiot". In WoW if you don't want to play with the jerks of the server don't play with them. If you want to join a group and they start asking questions, or making comments you don't like, leave. If you don't leave you are no better then they are since you have put loot/rewards ahead of your moral compass.
Personally though I like running PUGs in any MMO. 95% of the people you meet in them are fantastic and loads of fun, the 5% I either laugh at to myself or wind up and watch them go.

'I would just like to say..' by Beauturkey
Submitted on 2008-11-21 11:56:53 CST
A) Asking her if she was a "hard-core" player was not an insult. Neither was telling her she was, according to all evidence, which I did. Adding smilies and calling the Sisters genius (which I think all three casters were) usually means that I mean no harm. I thought this show was "No prisoners No mercy" not "Please do not ask tough questions."

B) I thought that the sis's would be commenting more.

C) People with integrity do not care if people think they have integrity or not.

D) I would just like to point people to my latest vidcast at ...this week it's a discussion about value! *shameless plug*


'Oh the Inter-webs' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-21 12:07:08 CST
An apology wasn't desired or required. I wasn't arguing with a person. I was expressing a point of view. I did however, find the attempted psycho analysis rude and unnecessary part of the conversation. If that's what passes for manners then no, I wouldn't have accepted an invite for a live conversation either.

'Am I Hardcore?' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-21 13:16:49 CST
Anyone who claims to read my blog would know that I fell into raiding because the guild needed a Warlock back when Molten Core was the raid of the day in WOW. I continued raiding while it was fun and carefree. When it became more hardcore "" requiring attendance, certain consumables and the alike, I exited.

Readers of my blog would also know that the next time I raided was for the same reason "" my guild needed a Warlock. Encounters in WOW seem to work that way sometimes and to help them out, I agreed. However, when it was evident that once again, I'd have to respec to something more "raid appropriate" and increase the pace at which I was grinding my crafted gear to boost my raid DPS, I bowed out. The whole this is a game not a second job conversation was all over my blog at the time.

I would have thought that my play style is clearly obvious to people who do read my blog. I care about spec and I care about decent gear because "" wait for it, I solo. It would be foolish of me to spec a priest for healing then attempt to go off and solo the whole game. I would be dumb in deed to spec my druid as heavy tank and ignore DPS then go off and solo. I tend to roll on PVP servers so I have to consider survivability when running around solo. So yes, whip me with the hardcore stick because I am in fact, very particular about my spec because it has a huge impact on my ability to solo.

Do I plan out my gear progression? Sure to some degree I always do because it will impact what content I can attempt and at what level. In a guild or outside of one, I'm going to solo content. For that reason, I try to avoid doing that in rags if at all possible. Does that make me a gear whore or elitist? I suppose that depends on the definition. Why do I solo MMOs? People who read my blog don't have to ask so I won't waste space expressing it here.

So what does all of this mean?
a. Nothing new to anyone who reads my blog
b. I could be considered hardcore or not depending on the definition
c. It's the inter-webs so I'll give this conversation a rest now
d. I detested little bulleted lists when asking a question that is based purely on opinion, as it strikes me as narrow minded and gives the air, that only the options of the person articulating the list, are valid/conceivable choices
e. All of the above.

'Whoah there kids....' by LealaTurkey
Submitted on 2008-11-21 13:58:03 CST
First of all I just wanna say that just because the discussion was inspired by you Saylah that it really has much more to do with the bigger picture and not you at all. So please don't take it personally and get defensive. That's not the point. It stems from lots of discussions that have been happening all over the place (including in the Turkey household).

Here are just a couple of facts.

The sisters love controversy. They have been harping on their show for about a month about getting "hate mail" that from everything I understand actually amounted to a couple of comments (one of which was innocently made by me defending WoW) on VW and one bad iTunes review (that was later taken away).

The segment on the show was supposed to be "the war of wars" and the 3 people who were having the discussion are all in the position of being kind of bitter at WoW right now and have chosen WAR instead. No biggie but it doesn't lead to a balanced discussion.

The three of you openly said on this episode something to the tune of "WoW players would kill their own mothers for epics". Julie stated this as fact and you all agreed. Again and again its been like a running joke from the sisters that raiders in WoW are like evil little gremlins who chant "whats your spec?". It literally blows my mind that anyone would say something so obviously inflammatory like than then be surprised if it got a response. I'm sorry but NO, its not fair play.

And again, I'm sorry if you wanna argue, but there is no way a real meaningful mature discussion can happen in a bunch of text comments on a blog. You have to speak to eachother as mature adults. And no, not like on Jerry Friggin Springer.

And Gnova, where do you live because I owe you a hug! Thanks for understanding.

'Where there's smoke, there's fire.' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-21 16:32:29 CST
When a complete stranger claims in caps to KNOW ME, I'm likely to get defensive. If that's not the intent, I'd suggest trying a different tact in the future.

You know what they say about opinions, "... we all have them." Mine about WOW are based on my experiences in WOW. The Sisters based on theirs. Yours based on yours. They are all subjective, can't be proven to be true OR false because they are merely opinions. We're all entitled to them. People who do "know" Saylah, as much as anyone can know someone from the internet, know that I'm not bitter about WOW and didn't leave WOW for WAR, so let's not perpetuate that inaccuracy.

I continued to explain my point of view without attempting to sum up "who Beau is" based on this conversation. That however, proved to be a one-way effort.

'Where there's smoke, there's fire.' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-21 16:39:14 CST
When a complete stranger claims in caps to KNOW ME, I'm likely to get defensive. If that's not the intent, I'd suggest trying a different tact in the future.

You know what they say about opinions, "... we all have them." Mine about WOW are based on my experiences in WOW. The Sisters based on theirs. Yours based on yours. They are all subjective, can't be proven to be true OR false because they are merely opinions. We're all entitled to them. People who do "know" Saylah, as much as anyone can know someone from the internet, know that I'm not bitter about WOW and didn't leave WOW for WAR, so let's not perpetuate that inaccuracy.

I continued to explain my point of view without attempting to sum up "who Beau is" based on this conversation. That however, proved to be a one-way effort.

'Where there's smoke, there's fire.' by Saylah
Submitted on 2008-11-21 16:54:52 CST
When a complete stranger claims in caps to KNOW ME, I'm likely to get defensive. If that's not the intent, I'd suggest trying a different tact in the future.

You know what they say about opinions, "... we all have them." Mine about WOW are based on my experiences in WOW. The Sisters based on theirs. Yours based on yours. They are all subjective, can't be proven to be true OR false because they are merely opinions. We're all entitled to them. People who do "know" Saylah, as much as anyone can know someone from the internet, know that I'm not bitter about WOW and didn't leave WOW for WAR, so let's not perpetuate that inaccuracy.

I continued to explain my point of view without attempting to sum up "who Beau is" based on this conversation. That however, proved to be a one-way effort.

'Blown out of proportion.' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-11-21 18:41:57 CST
The spec thing:

Again, the comment is about a strategy, and it wasn't from the sisters but their guest. Saylah could have easily said, I use this landmark for cover and this sequence of abilities. She mentions wanting to be mobile which to me is a good indication it's not all about the spec. Nor is she rejecting anyone else on their spec, which is really the point of the gripe the sisters have.

Continued ranting on this would be like people nailing Beau to the cross every time he breaks or bends his immersion rule. Or pegging Darren every time he uses the word "polish." If rubbing people's noses in things is how people get their jollies, then so be it.

Also, I never got the impression from anyone on this show that WoW is a terrible game as a whole because of this one issue.

The WoW is filled with jerks thing:

I remember the discussions differently. More like, I was set to go group with some people and they kicked me out after discovering my spec or gear. I don't think anyone seeks out jerks to play with. I doubt these people think they are being jerks. I don't think it amounts to some large moral dilemma. It's more akin to thinking: this is a ridiculous reason not to group.

The no meaningful discussion on a blog thing:

Well first off I take a little offense to be referred to as a kid, because I'm not. Not that you're referring to me personally, but all of us, like this is your kindergarden class. Then further condescend and suggest that none of us contributing in this form can be mature or give meaningful input is worse. Yet you praise Gnova, who I guess gets a gold star and a prize from the cookie jar. I really don't know what to else to say about that.

I think I'm done with this topic.

'Thanks for proving my point then.' by LealaTurkey
Submitted on 2008-11-21 19:51:00 CST
Instead of hearing what I'm trying to say like you would if I was a human being sitting in front of you, you pick out one word (kid) and take it to mean some serious insult when it was actually just a lighthearted joke. (I was trying to break tension by being sarcastic. I do that a lot.) But because we are trying to talk about a sorta kinda sensitive subject by typing in a bunch of comments.... it gets twisted and misunderstood.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to communicate this way, I'm just saying that most of the time (in my opinion) it doesn't work out well. And now the result of just trying to talk about some games is that a few people who have never talked to me, seen me, heard me or gamed with me have it in their head that I am a jerk.

It just frustrates me is all.

And as for Beau, he's his own person. I don't speak for him.

He is, in fact, a big meany-pants, meany jerkface, so you all hit the nail on the head about him. haha (See, silly sarcastic humor there again in an attempt to lighten the mood.)

'Whew!' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-11-22 00:32:19 CST
*looks up at the wall of text*

Wow...I think my eyes are bleeding from all that reading.

'Amused.' by SwollenBeef
Submitted on 2008-11-22 18:46:10 CST
I am amused at watching the Hosts go from War is the second coming, to now middle of the road.

'out of context' by Token
Submitted on 2008-11-22 18:58:42 CST
This show always embraced the hilarity of mmo games and players so I really don't think the arguments against the content hold any water at all. It's just very well articulated opinions and they can change their minds as much as they want, that's all it is....

'Out of context revisted' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-11-23 12:08:27 CST
Thanks for the support Token. Unlike what some listeners may think Fran and I are able to not only able to play more than one game and enjoy it but be critics of it as well where it is due. Fran and I and our guest both complimented WoW and were critical of it in the same show. Listeners can launch themselves headlong into a wall of text on all sides if they so choose - after all that is what the show discussion thread is for.

But one thing is for sure...hate me, like me or love me just spell the name correctly; and no matter what anyone may feel Fran and I will create content for the show as we see fit. After all, THAT is why it is CALLED "no prisoners no mercy."


p.s. If someone doesn't like our guest Saylah don't listen to the next show. She and two more guests will back and are more than welcome to do so at any time they choose.

'Nice Guest' by Celestian
Submitted on 2008-11-24 17:16:47 CST
Enjoyed the guest and the show, keep up the good work!

'Stereotyping' by Gnova
Submitted on 2008-11-24 18:37:48 CST
It wasn't the fact that you critised WoW that people were upset about. It was the fact that you critised it's playerbase and made sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes towards them.
ie. Raiders willing to their sell mothers for loot, etc... That was offensive.

'Amazed @ Gnova' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-11-25 06:40:08 CST
You got to get a thicker skin. They were having fun and speaking in extremes to bring some levity to the show. They do it with just about everything they do. The Sisters were poking some fun at the worst of the WoW raiding crowd, not the community as a whole.

As far as I can tell they enjoy WoW and WAR.

To me it seems that people just want there to be a problem, so there is something to bitch about. So what if someone doesn't like your game. What I don't like is when they come on here trying to debate and when asked into another forum to do it, well they run from it because they know their argument is to weak to defend.

'Generic Post Title' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-11-25 07:55:17 CST
@ BurntSushi

/Sarcasm On

What? Me? Having fun with extremes? Never! As a matter of fact I think that everyone who plays wow would sell knife their own mother for an epic loot. Yes indeed, everyone. Including the grandmothers and mothers I know who give me "warm grandma hugs".

/Sarcasm Off

Unfortunately the problem is all too common in wow. Yes it is prevalent in any raiding community. I know there is at least one guild member whom Fran spoke to (no names unless the guild member wants to bring it up themselves) who lost real world friends over it.

The loot that I value is family.


'.' by SwollenBeef
Submitted on 2008-11-27 22:57:04 CST
I dont care what game you are playing, there will always be loot envy. It was in EQ, DAOC, and we see it in WoW.
The reason why the picking on WoW players is the number of players.

400,000 vs 11 mill.
Thats like saying, Crime is less prevalent in Pensacola fl. than it is in New York City.