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Witty Ranter #12
Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:30:00 GMT [download/play]



Put on the Asbestos suit and gloves, cuz here come the flames...

Adam brings Brent, Darren, John the Ancient Gaming Noob and Michael Zenke for a look at Warhammer in "WAR: What's All the Ruckus?".

We're taking a closer look at the game compared to the unprecedented hype that went into this game, both from the playerbase as well as EA/Mythic's very effective advertising/brand marketing group.  Ultimately we looked at 3 areas:
1) Will the "zomg new improvements/features" such as the RVR and Public Quests leave a feeling of "whoa! this is new" or "meh... hasn't this been done before?"
2) PVP.  There's just a little bit of discussion on this.  People say PVP sucks during the discussion.  You have been warned.  (Tinfoil Hats are encouraged but not required during this segment)
3) How will this game ultimately affect both the MMO community as well as the individual game communities already out there?

This is gonna be a fun one.  Feel free to comment... I'm sure there will be many!

PS: iTunes reviews please :)

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Episode 12 Discussion Thread

'When will you stop?' by telstar
Submitted on 2008-09-07 02:31:53 CST
Brent said in "How I Wow" podcast that he basically had the team that could have created EQ and from the podcast here Brent seems to think it should be easy to create UT style FPS in an MMO. Brent you may be smarter, stronger, more talented and better looking than me but WTF with your comments man?

Brent, I'm not a Warhammer fan but it brings me down everytime you speak about Warhammer. Are you trying to get Mythic to improve the game before launch? Are you trying to tell everyone that you could do a better job? I find you very egotistical in your constant feedback on the Warhammer front. It seems like you may not really understand how complicated it must be to create a game like this. I am sure you would say you do though.

I would like to see you move on to other things - You got your point across. I understand that the pod-casters are inviting you on their podcasts because your comments are "big news". However, I think it would be best if you let the casters move on to talking about games that they like instead of games that you don't like.

Hopefully you will understand that I would really just like to hear podcasts that focus on the good in MMO's - it's such a drag to keep hearing the complaints. I am probably not alone.

Thanks Michael for sharing your perspective. It was good to hear some positive words even if they were just to support the argument on the opposite side of the discussion.








'... Why does he have to stop?' by trollonfire
Submitted on 2008-09-07 11:34:14 CST
Telstar,

My own personal opinion is your thoughts are off base. Brent has never said that he hates Warhammer; he has said there are aspects to the game that he hates, but he's never flat out said he hates it. In fact during the show even BRENT states that he never said he hates Warhammer. Brent has also never said to my knowledge that he thinks he could do a better job than Mythic in designing the game. Our comments were centered around the fact that the team that designed Dark Age of Camelot *should* be able to do better than "WoW reskinned".

If you noticed, none of us said we hated Warhammer. We all thought it was going to be a very successful game, and it would end up being a big win for EA/Mythic. Our comments were mainly directed in how Warhammer was going to take away players from other current MMO's and cannibalize the playerbase, not adding new players as WoW did. Love it or hate it, WoW brought millions of new players to the MMO table, and besides the new elements brought to MMO's, the game itself was the next big thing in MMO evolution, widening their appeal to a larger market, getting us "out of our mother's basements", to quote Mr. Zenke.

I think we brought a pretty balanced group to the forum. There are some people like Brent and myself who feel that EA/Mythic has the talent base as well as the ability to make this game have some innovations that truly would have put Warhammer into a class by itself, not just the latest addition to the current generation. Unfortunately in our minds, they didn't live up tot heir full potential. We don't hate; we're just disappointed. There's a subtle difference there, but an imporant distinction.



'Baffled' by Brent
Submitted on 2008-09-07 13:12:32 CST
telstar... I don't see the connection between the 10 year old story from How I WoW and the Warhammer discussion. Seeing as I don't have 50 million dollars, a huge team of people and a 20+ year history in the game industry that Jacobs has, I believe it would be rather naive to say I could do better, and as Adam pointed out, I never said that. You're drawing connections between things that don't have anything to do with one another. Two different conversations, unrelated, with ten years separating the events. Again, I'll reiterate: over ten years MMOs have come a long way, but this high budget title only takes a tiny baby step forward - and THAT is the part that makes me cranky.

On other other fronts:
/echo what Adam said.



'not stronger' by Brent
Submitted on 2008-09-07 13:13:35 CST
Oh, and I'm certainly not stronger than many people. Have you seen my arms lately? They're like wet noodles. I blame VirginWorlds for that. :)


'Your lack of vision is disturbing' by Bowman
Submitted on 2008-09-07 14:15:33 CST
WAR is about war! If you fail to see the gamedesign in place to breath life into the everlasting, epic conflict of WAR, all you see is a 'classic' MMORPG like WoW. Even more disturbing is, that you don't give Mythic their due! Every 'classic' MMORPG aspect of WAR is improved over genre standards. Leveling guilds? Leveling cities? Original classes for every race? Dynamic world? Every piece of gameplay contributes to the war? A common goal for every player, enforcing a strong community, instead of elitist groups? Open groups? Public quests? The list goes on!

So yeah, you play the game and it plays a lot like WoW. It doesn't feel like 'the next generation' MMORPG. What you fail to see, is the big picture. You fail to see the war. I was a WoW player, a very successful one at that. I killed Illidan about a half a year before Sunwell was introduced and I did carry to the M'uru encounter. I was a highend, elitist raider. What made me quit WoW, was the lack of meaning of my achievements outside the elitist raiding instances. There is no game for me outside of Sunwell, no place, where my achievements and shiny loots help me and the horde to win the war, to gain global domination or anything like that. WoW happens inside some personalized instance. In the outside, the actual massively multiplayer world, there is nothing big and epic, it's all small time!

WAR is big time in the outside world! Keeps sieges and capital city sackings. Open RvR lakes with battlefield objectives. Every bit of gameplay contributes to the war effort and determines the frontlines. My strenght is part of our force! I am a hero in my realms army! We fight together against a common enemy! We have a common goal! I fight to be somebody in a massive world! No other game delivers this feeling in such a high quality as WAR. And this is only the beginning. We have only scratched the paint. The longer the war goes on, the more meaning my name will have on the battlefield, and the more meaning the names of my allies and enemies will have! We spil bloodl over this game to write our communities history. That is the true achievement of WAR, and it is grand! Your lack of vision is disturbing, especially for such a vocal crowd!



'*takes a deep breath and braces for impact*' by odinseye
Submitted on 2008-09-07 15:18:29 CST
I loved the show this round guys great banter among you all. Now with that said I am going to throw something out there, dregged up from the pit of vaporware hell.

There were so many things you guys talked about when you was describing what you liked about wars pvp and what you didnt like about it and then your thoughts on pvp in general. Everything you said you liked and wished you could have, man, they were a dead on description of the system in Darkfall.

*throws up his sheild*

I know Brent especially, in the past, has covered this game and is probably to a point where he swears he will never talk about it again, but it is just about to go into beta, invites are being sent now. I really think you guys ought to look into it and see the things it describes especially about its pvp. So many times I think about it and I wonder, why haven't people did these things before now?

Yeah yeah I know, Darkfall has been the joke of the community for what the last few years because of the fears of vaporware, but to my surprise it is just about to be a reality and I will be there. With that said I would love in the future to hear a show where you guys discuss what you think about all the cool features that realm plans to produce.

Yes youre right, I am a hopeless dreamer..... lol



'*takes a deep breath and braces for impact*' by odinseye
Submitted on 2008-09-07 15:21:45 CST
I loved the show this round guys great banter among you all. Now with that said I am going to throw something out there, dregged up from the pit of vaporware hell.

There were so many things you guys talked about when you was describing what you liked about wars pvp and what you didnt like about it and then your thoughts on pvp in general. Everything you said you liked and wished you could have, man, they were a dead on description of the system in Darkfall.

*throws up his sheild*

I know Brent especially, in the past, has covered this game and is probably to a point where he swears he will never talk about it again, but it is just about to go into beta, invites are being sent now. I really think you guys ought to look into it and see the things it describes especially about its pvp. So many times I think about it and I wonder, why haven't people did these things before now?

Yeah yeah I know, Darkfall has been the joke of the community for what the last few years because of the fears of vaporware, but to my surprise it is just about to be a reality and I will be there. With that said I would love in the future to hear a show where you guys discuss what you think about all the cool features that realm plans to produce.

Yes youre right, I am a hopeless dreamer..... lol



'On a sidenote:' by Bowman
Submitted on 2008-09-07 15:36:30 CST
In every PvP game, especially shooters like 'Battlefield', roleplaying is the most important part of the game. Know your class, know your enemies, know your goals and act accordingly.

In scenarios, much like in battlegrounds, reading the combat to anticipate your enemies next move, is essential for success. That is a skill!

Once you have obtained that ability, the next step is the obtain the abiltiy to lead. In WoW battlegrounds, I noticed, that randoms react to ./yell commands like 'Follow me', 'Flank', 'Attack XY' and so forth. More often than not, they would follow my lead. It may be, because I had the best available equip and an appropriate title, but it worked more often than not and it is very, very rewarding. So leadership is a PvP skill! Too bad battlegrounds were rended meaningless with TBC.

I am looking forward to playing WAR and turning into a realm rank 80 veteran swordmaster. I look forward to see my servers community to grow into a social playground of virtual warfare. I am sure to enjoy the war!

My rules of PvP roleplaying:

1. Value my life
2. Know my goals
3. Fight to win



'Star Wars Low Blow' by Bowman
Submitted on 2008-09-07 15:48:55 CST
Brent did it again! WTF is wrong with you? How can you compare WARs genious gamedesign to the the Star Wars prequels?

I really hope you take up Ryans and Garrys offer to roll with them. Unless you really want to ignore the fun to be had in WAR, you will do that for as long as month! Every day and every night!

I am sure, they and WAR will blow your mind! If you have an open mind, that is...



'Genius Game Design?' by trollonfire
Submitted on 2008-09-07 17:16:08 CST
@Bowman:

I wouldn't call WAR's game design "genius".... genius implies something totally revolutionary; everything WAR has presented *so far* is things we've seen in our MMO's.

Territory Control? Sorry, Planetside, Shadowbane, and Lineage already did it.
RVR? Been there already with DAoC... this is just v. 2.0 IMHO
Public Quests? Kill Ten Rats in a Raid formation.... I'd consider that debatable if it's "innovative".... twist on what we've already seen? yes. Innovative? meh...
Keep Battles? Again, DAoC and AoC have already done it.

And honestly.... can you really say Star Wars Episodes 1, 2 & 3 were good?

Brent's comment rings true... Lucas got what he wanted, a shitton of money.

EA's going to get what they want; #2 in the US market... and a shitton of money.



'@ trollonfire' by Bowman
Submitted on 2008-09-07 20:08:02 CST
The perception I have of WARs design, makes it a work of genius to me.

-The community building effects of the common goals in warfare and public quest and concept of open groups - genius.

-The realm- and guild pride boosting living guilds and cities - genious.

-The very 'massive', dynamic, persistent, yet very focused world, in which much of the endgame takes place. The entire tier 4 is endgame content! That's about half the launch content being endgame content! Horizontal content progession - genius.

-Bringing the game into MMORPGs, while getting rid of most of the grind - genius.

-PvP as viable MMORPG playstyle from level 1 - genius.

There's so much genius in WARs design, my limited words can't describe the potential for longlasting fun I see - but believe me, it feels like genius!



'More on genius' by Bowman
Submitted on 2008-09-07 20:19:59 CST
So genius often lies within taking something common and adding 'that magical pinch of fairy dust', that others just seem to miss. Genius often follows innovation. Innovation often is just a diamond in the rugh. It's genius to bring forth the brilliance within.


'@ Bowman' by trollonfire
Submitted on 2008-09-07 20:38:53 CST
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm glad you feel that WAR is "genius" and that it will make you very happy and potentially provide hours of entertainment. I personally will not support a game where the community I think will ultimately end up giving the MMORPG genre a black eye & potentially do more harm than good to the overall online gamer playerbase.

WAR is very likely to condense the playerbase into those who enjoy griefing, swearing & making life miserable for those around them; while no one HOPES this will be the case, it's highly likely to happen. People who enjoy PVP tend to have a playstyle & personality that is more aggressive than people who do not. I admit that I'm generalizing, but generalizations are often viewed as "the norm" in MMO's. That personality trait *can* (potentially, not definitely) turn the entire community into a pack of savage wolves, all trying to end up being the alpha male.

Traditionally in MMO's, that ends up becoming the behavior that many people do not enjoy, and many get turned off by it (griefing, ninja-looting, swearing, being a general asshat to everyone else). I think many people who play WAR hoping for a fun experience will be so turned off by this ultimately they'll end up swearing off online games for a while until someone corrects this. If that's the ultimate "benefit" of this game, to have 650k players, and end up losing 400k+ players globablly from perceptions, either justly or unjustly bestowed on a game/genre... then that's a net loss for the MMO community, regardless of who's "won" in WAR.



'WAR is a no-griefer-zone' by Bowman
Submitted on 2008-09-07 20:54:21 CST
WAR, at least in it's core design, is no place for griefers. I hate griefers and gankers just as much as the next guy, but there will be no griefing and ganking going at all.

Why?

-chickenization of too high level players (in RvR lakes in core/by entering lower tier on open)

-bolstering buff (in RvR lakes on core)

-As a WoW classic High Warlord of the Horde, I beg to differ. I had the best of times with my battleground mates. We were about 40 people keeping several battleground groups going at all times. No matter, when I logged in, there were people with common goals online, hanging out in teamspeak and rocking the house. Raiding and arenas were way worse in WoW. Why sooo serious? I had a lot good times raiding too, though.

I have a bad picture of the so called 'open PvP' crowd in WoW, since there is no game design in place to support this playstyle in WoW, they all are gankers to me. But that's not the case WAR. Not by a longshot.

WAR will be more or less griefer and ganker free, because it's more or less impossible by default and other than that, there's tons of gamedesign in place, to make PvP out in the open a viable playstyle, so I will perceive it differently than usually. But I guess, you need to share my perception of WARs design, to see WARs vision.



'Classless Game' by Kebcabalite
Submitted on 2008-09-08 16:12:47 CST
I'm quite surprised that no-one mentioned the original version of Star Wars Galaxies that did implement a skill based system as opposed to a class based one. It did have horrendous issues with balance but it did try.


'This' by Checksix
Submitted on 2008-09-08 17:55:54 CST
Brent
Is
Spot
On.

And the comparison with the Star Wars prequels was spot on too. Here you ahve a GREAT time in movie making where unbeleiveable effects are now possible and George gives us....this?

Same feeling with War Hammer Online. We're at a point in tech where amazing things are possible and instead of moving the genere forward they give us the same old crap designed to do nothing but woo Warcraft subscribers.

Call me a basement dweller if you want to but I want to EXPECT more from MMO development houses. I want them to push the envelope AND break new ground. It's not too much to ask either.

And as far as Mike Z's question "What do you expect them to do" I'll tell you. I EXPECT them to knock my socks off with their brillance and genius. They just didn't.



'WAR playerbase worse then WoW's? Don't think so....' by coppertopper
Submitted on 2008-09-09 07:23:27 CST
Brent
Is
Burnt
Out

Its one thing to bash a game because you are burnt out on fantasy MMOs, but don't prejudge an entire community if you have no experience in a certain genre (RvR mmos). Look, if your experience is WoW PvP which consists of griefing PvErs in Southshore/Stranglethorn and afking in BGs until you get your PvP gear, its no wonder you have a bad attitude against PvPers. You are probably projecting that experience onto WAR but thinking it will be worse since in WAR "war is everywhere". Don't, just don't. RvR is not PvP, and everything about the game design discourages solo, twink, griefer, or uber group style play.



'Don't Assume.' by Checksix
Submitted on 2008-09-09 08:34:31 CST
@coppertopper: It's a mistake to assume that I'm a WoW PvP'er and thats why I'm not happy about WAR. I think Zenke said it best in this podcast when he said "Holy shit another kill ten rats quest?" That's my problem with WAR and with the state of the industry.

I was thinking about it a lot last night, mostly about Z's question "What do you expect them to do." Yeah, what do I expect exactly.

Then I fired up Civ IV. Civ IV is a GAME. It has rules and assets that allow me to play 100 games of Civ IV and never get tired of it. Every game is different in some way. Every game provides different challenges. Same rules, hell I even play the same "character" most of the time but each game ends up different.

If I had five years and buckets of money thrown at me to make an MMO, I'd make a game that allowed for many iterations of game play over a period of time. Kind of like Civ IV. NO I'm not saying I'd make Civ IV online. But the replayability of games like that are due to a rule set and mechanics that allow for it. I'd try to bring that to the MMO PvE space.

PvP? I'm not smart enough to figure out why MMO PvP sucks as much as it does...but it does. When I play CoD4...THATS PvP. WoW, DAoC, hell ANY MMO PvP...just doesn't cut it.



'Brent, this is an MMO, not an FPS or Fighting game' by ScytheNoire
Submitted on 2008-09-09 20:02:46 CST
When Brent started comparing WAR to FPS and Fighting games, I couldn't believe no one called him out on it. What the hell kind of crap is that when you start comparing different genres? WoW doesn't play like an FPS or Fighter game either. If that's the type of PvP you want, go play that type of game. It's why we have different genres!

WAR doesn't reinvent the wheel, and for good reason. Those games that try to do that, don't do that well. Mythic and EA aren't here to reinvent the MMO world, let others try to do that and either fail or make small profits. No, EA and Mythic are going head-to-head with the MMO juggernaut WoW and to do that, they can't reinvent the MMO, but rather innovate on that which already exists.

Brent, you might be a veteran of the MMO gaming world, but from one vet to another, you are jaded and unrealistic. You can't look past yourself, and the fact that you yourself are tired of MMO's, and thus, continue to make unrealistic expectations. WAR shouldn't be an FPS or Fighting game, that's just insane thinking. What WAR is is WoW with a PvP system that works, makes grouping easy, and removes annoying scheduled PvE raids.

Basically, WAR fixes most of my major dislikes about WoW, and gives many MMO gamers what they have been waiting for, which isn't an FPS or Fighting MMO, but an MMO that evolves past what we already have out there and makes it fun again.



'Skill-less PvP?' by PeZzy
Submitted on 2008-09-10 00:55:10 CST
I'm a little puzzled by Brent calling WAR "skill-less PvP'. I'd say all MMORPGs have skill-less PvP. Most of the MMOs I have played, it's either gank or be ganked, and I'm usually the one getting 'pwnd'. In WAR it's more about team strategy - just like it should be in any MMO. Unfortunately most MMOs have PvP that's usually 2 vs 1 or 10 vs 1. WAR pushes people together in large groups with the smarter group usually winning. It reminds me of the good old days on Bloodfin (SWG).

About the comment regarding DC Universe having more evolved PvP...well....I have my doubts. I think all of SOE's products get a little hyped-up in Brent's eyes, thanks to the presentations he gets to view. I hope it's nothing like CoH/CoV because their PvP is baaad.



'@Checksix' by PeZzy
Submitted on 2008-09-10 01:10:39 CST
I don't think you can turn Civ 4 into an MMORPG without creating some sort of boring timesink. Boring Timesinks are pretty much a requirement for an MMORPG.


'Defeatist @ PeZzy' by Checksix
Submitted on 2008-09-10 08:01:51 CST
Saying all MMO's need a boring time sink is a very defeatist attitude...don't you think? WHY? Why does any part of our have HAVE to be boring?

The only reason grind is still in MMO's is because some one hasn't figured a way past it yet. That's the only reason. The first company that figures out grinding isn't fun and gives you a viable and meaningful alternative will be king.

If any one likes grind, I suggest they take up stamp collecting. You'll be happier in the long run.

@ScytheNoire Different genres of games can learn from each other. I think that is the point.



'There was something new, but that just faded.' by Edward78
Submitted on 2008-09-10 15:13:10 CST
It came out 03/25/03 & it is called Shadowbane. At least 1 company wasn't scared to try something new, it is old, but still the best PvP game out. You can build or siege cities, a guild has a reason to PvP, there are mines with resources to fight over among other thing. I really wish they would update it. www.shadowbane.com


'Stamp this baby!' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2008-09-10 15:19:12 CST
@checksix: Screw you and your anti-philatelic bias!

Actually, I used to collect stamps and I play MMOs, so I get the link and agree. Saying that there must be boring time sinks in order to sustain an MMO is a defeatist attitude. The fact that developers add in things that some people see as boring time sinks just means that the genre has a long way to go.

BTW, I bought Civ IV, but I still play Civ II most of the time. I find it to be the apex of the series.



'There was something new, but that just faded.' by Edward78
Submitted on 2008-09-10 15:20:07 CST
It came out 03/25/03 & it is called Shadowbane. At least 1 company wasn't scared to try something new, it is old, but still the best PvP game out. You can build or siege cities, a guild has a reason to PvP, there are mines with resources to fight over among other thing. I really wish they would update it. www.shadowbane.com


'Ha! First Person MMO.' by Seritaph
Submitted on 2008-09-10 18:59:09 CST
I had to laugh over the comparison of MMO's to FPS's. Talk about a genre that has hardly evolved over many years. Talk about a genre where you chase some dude around endlessly. And, oh yeah, the community makes me all warm and fuzzy! When it comes to mature players, that community represents, yo! (heavy sarcasm in case it's not detected).

Evolution is a gradual process, and becomes even more so on something that is marketable and has a mass appeal. (Can we say, done with reality t.v. and hip-hop/rap music already... so sick of that crap, yet... IT'S STILL THERE).

I stick to my argument that Brent is not looking for a new MMO. Brent is tired of MMOs and is looking for a new genre that's just not out yet.




'@ Wilhelm2451' by Checksix
Submitted on 2008-09-10 20:12:59 CST
My only bias is Anti-Phallic. I only like my own :)


'Brent's tired of MMO's... that's a good one!' by trollonfire
Submitted on 2008-09-10 20:19:50 CST
Spending more time with Brent than some other folks, I can say this isn't the case.

Every Monday Night, Brent, Brenden, Darren, Michael and I do plumb the depths of MMO's and play as a static group. one night a week, we just enjoy the game for what it is. I've been lucky enough to play WoW and DDO with them... although I know they've also spent time in AoC and another game while I took my mini-sanity break =/

Brent is in part hoping for something that will truly wow him.... who wouldn't? But Brent is also a pragmatist, who does understand that Rome wasn't built in a day.

I have certain games I'm hoping will help break the current mold of MMO's... but they're not out yet. I admit I don't play MMO's as often as I used to, in part because it does feel like the same old thing, with each game I try. Be it EQ, WoW, DAoC, WAR.... they all add up to the same thing. Running around, kill ten rats, Fedex, and collect quests. Every game has them, and every game, that's what you have to look forward to as grind to get to "the good stuff"

I'm sure WAR's RVR will change all of that, and the grind won't feel like a grind, the game's world will suck everyone into the battle between Order and Chaos... but I personally don't buy it. I know that as I'm killing Greenskin #500 of my life in the game world, it means exactly 2 things: Jack and Shit, and Jack left town. "Oh, but Adam! Killing the greenskins helps us obtain our keep battle objective".... I'm calling shenanigans on that one. SHENANIGANS, I tell you!

Witty Ranter - raising gamers' blood pressure, one point per episode.



'And the cycle continues' by BiggDawg98
Submitted on 2008-09-11 11:16:11 CST
I find it very ironic that you all are throwing rocks at Mythic and Lucas for making a "cash grab" when you all are making a "publicity grab" by continuing to drag out the "lets poke at WAR and stir up the internet" podcasts, blogs, etc. It's a free internet (for now) so do what you like, but I can't resist irony especially when someone is righteously pointing at what others do and decry it and at the same time do it themselves.


'@BiggDawg - the cycle will ALWAYS continue' by trollonfire
Submitted on 2008-09-11 12:33:00 CST
First off, check your facts. "We're all throwing rocks at Mythic" - Wrong. In fact, Mr. Zenke never threw rocks at Mythic, and neither did Darren; both of them praised EA/Mythic's latest installment into the MMO universe. Lumping people into one category - cheap shots.

We "threw rocks" at Lucas because those movies DID suck. If you're going to tell me that Episodes I-III were better than IV-VI, you're dreaming. But then, depending on your age, CGI may count more than shitty acting and stupid plotlines. Everyone in our discussion group grew up with Star Wars IV-VI... practically raised with our mother's milk in some cases. What Lucas did to that series (and even more with the latest Clone Wars CGI abomination), even taking in SWG and the fiasco that happened over there is to "bring his more of his vision of the Star Wars Universe.... while becoming richer than Croesus". Sorry George, you should've stopped with Jedi, been rich and happy knowing that you'd enriched the lives and given birth to as many if not more nerds than 'Trek did. But I digress...

Secondly - Since when did any of us say making money was bad? This is a business world, and these games ultimately are an investment for the game companies & they expect a return on that investment. I get that, I work in the Financial sector; that being said, if what they're putting out in our opinion is more of the same old same old, we're certainly allowed to say it, just as you're allowed to say that you think we're wrong.

Publicity grab.... yeah, right. Are you kidding me? News item for you - Podcasters make shows for people to listen to, that may sometimes be controversial. GASP! Most shows can count their subscribership in the hundreds or low thousands; we're not exactly CBS or NBC here. I'm doing what my show has always set out to do - take controversial topics and get discussion going on them... judging by the amount of responses so far, I'd say that I'm succeeding.

How is there irony in our show? All that came out of that show was "WAR will make tons of money for EA/Mythic, and hardcore PVPers everywhere will rejoice at something other than WoW to play... we just think that Mythic could've raised the bar with the talent levels they have"... so it's Ironic that we made comments and ranted on a show called "Witty Ranter"?... who would've thunk it?

Go listen to Alanis some more, BiggDawg.... maybe then you'll truly understand Irony.



'Its Ironic Because...' by BiggDawg98
Submitted on 2008-09-11 13:28:25 CST
The irony is that people are railing on WAR for being the same old MMO stuff, and now the very topic itself is becoming "the same old WAR review with the same comments". So I say it is a "publicity grab" because the reason you are covering it is because it is a "hot topic" and you want in on the attention, hence it has been done and you are doing it because it is successful (hmm sounds familiar, maybe like some peoples complaint against WAR). Hence my comment of irony.

You as much admit above that you are doing a publicity grab, you are taking a current "hot topic" and dangling it out there to get some people to listen. You use the very tactic Mythic took when approaching the MMO market. Why didn't you innovate this topic? Why didn't you go out and create a whole new type of podcast never before seen or imagined? People have already covered this topic so why do you? Oh right you looked around and saw what was successful and tried to incorporate that into your podcast because you don't want to waste your time and valuable resources on making something unsuccessful. There isn't anything wrong with doing it, it is human nature to take the most likely route to success (logical thing to do).

When people wonder why the big name titles who have the resources don't go out and try something crazy it is because they have investors expecting a return. Investors are risk adverse, revolutionizing an industry is risky. To expect Mythic to revolutionize MMO's is just plain crazy. The companies with the biggest budgets have the biggest restrictions on them. If you want MMO revolution it will only come from small independent companies that have no hope of competing in the mainstream MMO market, because in order to succeed big they will have to create a new market. When one of them stumbles upon the next big thing that is when you will see a revolution. Big companies exist to use economies of scale to milk the current mold, only when the mold doesn't work anymore will they try to find a new one (MMO obviously still work as it is a growing market).

I appreciate the music referral, but I don't listen to angst rock (to whiny), but maybe that is more of your style...




'*Shakes Fist*' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2008-09-11 15:34:44 CST
Damn you Adam for doing a show about a popular upcoming game that everybody is talking about! You're obviously just interested in some sort of crass listener grab!

You should be doing shows comparing the fishing mechanics across various MMORPGs! Or maybe something about Meridian 59, is it still hot or not! Or what other games could learn from Shadowbane! How about a show on roleplaying in MMORPGS?

Hrmm, actually, I'd listen to all of those... and you did the last one I guess... twice.

But obviously if you're doing a show about something new and interesting and popular you are doing the community a disservice. You should be burying yourself in a 12 listener niche! If you keep on this popularity bent of yours, you'll just get all sorts of additional listeners and feedback and such! You don't want that, do you?



'I'm enjoying this!' by Jonathan
Submitted on 2008-09-11 22:37:58 CST
Adam pretty much summed up my thinking when he said " I'm doing what my show has always set out to do - take controversial topics and get discussion going on them... judging by the amount of responses so far, I'd say that I'm succeeding"
Here, here! The whole point of the show is exactly what's been happening. To take a topic someone may consider a bit close to heart, and get the mind running for both sides of the camp. I'd say this episode was total success.

BTW...a show about Meridian59... I like the sound of that... ;)



'*scratches head confusedly*' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-09-12 17:17:49 CST
What I guess I fail to understand with all the heated arguement is this: Why woiuld anyone particularly care if Brent, Michael or anyone else like Warhammer. Now the fact of the matter is I personally happen to respect brent and his opinion carries alot of weight with me. That does NOT however mean I am going to not play Warhammer.

Why should it put a dent in someone's day or game playing if another player, columnist, blogger or podcaster doesn't like the game they play? I may know that "hell hath no fury like a gamer whose game has been scorned" but I have never understood it.

That said...

Some interesting points above I will have to talk about with my co-host on my next podcast (thanks for the ideas friends)

"Our comments were mainly directed in how Warhammer was going to take away players from other current MMO's and cannibalize the playerbase, not adding new players as WoW did." - trollonfire

Very interesting and very true. What WoW did, more than anything else, was bring videogaming (and in particular MMO video gaming) to the attention of the general public AND make it acceptable to say "I am a gamer" and not be considered a pariah.

"Every bit of gameplay contributes to the war effort and determines the frontlines." - Bowman

An interesting aspect of most mmos is that no matter what you do, you will not have a lasting affect upon the persistent virtual world. Now I will admit to not having taken part in any keep battle yet (but not for want of opportunity). However one of the curious aspects to pvp is this "why do you do it?" Is it for the joy of doing it? Is it to have "an impact on which side is winning"? I wonder how much interest there truly is in that aspect of the game, at least when it comes to city battles - I am interested in what the future holds.

My co-host used to pvp in WoW (and did it ALOT). But if you asked her why she would say "for the gear". If you asked her why she needed the gear she would say "to be better at pvp".

So my question would not be "why do you wow?" but rather why does anyone pvp?

Personally I could give a rats tiny tushy if Brent likes Warhammer or not. Personally I do, but not for the white knuckled pvp. As heartless put it, pvp in Warhammer is like pvp without the blood pressure medicine.

@ Brent: If you DO stop then I WILL get upset *brandishes ruler*. There is nothing quite so interesting as a rousing heated discussion about an interesting subject - seriously. Can we discuss politics now?




'I have to agree with Telstar.' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-09-12 18:19:39 CST
Seems that Brent has lost his "mojo" and has gone out his way to express his distaste for the game. I was impressed when I first started listening to VW at how impartial and informative that Brent was. Sure fine, not your cup of tea, but to say that the game is crap seems a little too much.

Seems to me that this is really getting way more attention than it deserves. Almost like Brent is some kind of a rockstar or celebrity? So what is next? A drunk Brent with Paris Hilton in a car, saying; "WAR is a firecrotch!"? Then we can talk about it like one person's opinion is the end all on the subject.

I respect Brent opinions, but this subject just seems to be talked about ad nauseam and I agree with Telstar in this regard.



'war is a firecrotch' by Julie
Submitted on 2008-09-12 19:17:49 CST
"War is a firecrotch?"I have no idea what that means but I just HAVE to quote it on the next show. Such a shame the term wasn't used before my co-host uploaded this weeks show. But hey, can I quote that?

@ Brent. I understand you lost your mojo. Remember what my dear departed grandmother used to say,"if you lost something its always in the last place you expect to find it.". Let me know if you need help locating your mojo. Is it an easy thing to loose?



'Here is what Fircrotch means Julie lol' by BurntSushi
Submitted on 2008-09-15 12:13:56 CST
Here is a link to the story.

http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/zap-brandondavislindsaylohanparishiltonfirecrotch,0,4239809.story

My use of the term is to illustrate how ridiculous the reaction to what Brent thinks.

Here is a definition for you as well.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=firecrotch



'Blasphemy!' by trollonfire
Submitted on 2008-09-15 19:56:19 CST
*makes the sign of the cross in front of Julie's eyes, for fear the internetz will burn them from their sockets*

@Julie: Brent lost his mojo similar to how Austin Powers lost his... I don't think you're going to help him recover that one ;)

And... just to prove that hypocrisy knows no bounds... I picked up a copy of WAR to prove myself wrong.

Perhaps everyone else is right and I'm wrong. Perhaps I didn't do enough research. Or perhaps I'll prove myself right and the game will just be WoW reskinned.

Either way.... where's the grass? This dumb sheep is hungry.