'Colour me surpsrised' by darrenl
Submitted on 2007-02-19 08:07:36 CST
Wow Brent....I'm really surprised about your impressions of LoTR. Lots of your concerns are valid for sure, but I'm surprised it didn't grab you. It grabbed me quite a bit...especially the landscape.

'LOTRO - its good.' by Dathmar
Submitted on 2007-02-19 11:28:09 CST
Great show again...
LOTRO - I agree that some parts of the UI are awful - I have even reported this to the devs ( via bug / forums) some time back...
and I also think its not always very interactive world.
...oh and the NPCs are all static clones (down to the clothes they wear) - no immersion there.....and the spells that I have seen are a little dull.

However I personally think the game has a lots of polish (at this stage of beta), quests are too bad and it runs a treat and looks great on some very average machines.

As I understand it the game does get stronger as you go up in levels...or so I am hearing.

I personally am going the subscribe based on what I have seen in the beta so far....might even go for the £99 / $200 subscription so I never have to worry about subs again.

'Quest in VG' by kain
Submitted on 2007-02-20 09:03:51 CST
Well Brent I think you were off a bit when you talked about quest in VG.

In the 20+ perspective quest give VERY little XP. At level 20 a equal level instance quest only yeilds 2-4%. You are right when it comes to 1-15. Quest in VG seem to be very secondary. I have been forced to grind from 14-25 due to only finding 10 quest during that time.

'LOTRO' by kain
Submitted on 2007-02-20 09:06:25 CST
Also I have to agree with you on every single point you have made about LOTRO.

'All that LotRO stuff' by Brent
Submitted on 2007-02-20 10:17:57 CST
so far I have some people not understanding where I'm coming from on this LotRO bit and others who completely agree. There are many little things about the interface that I don't like, but in the end, what it lacks (for me) is any drive to accomplish tasks. Through the point in the game where I am, there's no carrot hanging in front of me that I want to capture. It feels like a cheap knock off of other MMOs with a great IP behind it. I don't know why that is exactly, but I'll keep playing it to see if I can put my finger on the problem. I think it is a subtle one and still feel like I haven't exactly identified it.

Things I know for sure, but only scratch the surface of the real problem I have yet to verbalize properly: The UI is crap, particularly the toolbar. The combat is completely uninteresting, just like DDO. And that little zoom-warp that it does when you switch from 1st person to 3rd... what the heck is that all about? :)

'Unrest' by Sanctified
Submitted on 2007-02-20 19:27:54 CST
All I can say is if the EQ2 devs spent all this time for a zone that 90% of the player population had to mentor to have fun in Id be mighty ticked.

Also, I wasnt impressed by LOTRO either. Its bland and I uninstalled the beta after an hour of playing. I can say that for a beta it seemed very solid.

'Uncanny Valley' by Sanctified
Submitted on 2007-02-20 19:32:02 CST
Oh almost forgot....about the Uncanny Valley theory..

I think most people dont like hyper-realistic character models because on the whole theyre boring and unimaginitive. I also think that you people think WAY too much about video games.

'I think way too much about Video games.' by Dathmar
Submitted on 2007-02-20 20:17:20 CST
What else is there to think about other than Video Games ?
and doughnuts....mmm doughnuts
oh and women
- lets not forget beer too.

'LoTRO, VG, Uncanny' by Sente
Submitted on 2007-02-21 02:08:11 CST
Many of the comments of LoTRO I agree with, although I don't know what "clunkiness" there was at start. I liked the human tutorial start better than the elven one.
I think a problem with LoTRO is the LoTR IP actually, as well as a benefit. The story and setting will be well-known for most players likely and going around in the world will be more like "let's see how place xxx looks like" rather than "wonder what will be around the corner and what things this world will hold".
There will be less surprises and sense of discovery of new things - or at least one will not expect to find all new things to explore.

On the other hand the IP helps with telling a story a bit - there was no extensive explanation needed that there likely was a Nazgul in the human tutorial start and what a Nazgul is - seeing a dark hooded figure out of that context might not have given the same feeling.
And some NPCs seems to be doing a bit of name-dropping as well..;)

Part of my positive feeling about LoTRO may be related to having played a bit of Vanguard before - I think that is much worse in many regards and the feelings about just wanting to log out of the game came a number of times.

As for the Uncanny theory - I'm with Sanctified there, graphics for many character models are not close enough to be that realistic, they are just boring and uninspiring.
I think part of it may be the mindset of the people in the dev teams - they put the focus on the mobs to fight, and perhaps the environment one explores, not the behind you are going to look at for 100s of hours.
Looking at player types (see the Bartle test at, saw that mentioned on Psychochild's blog, good stuff), my guess is that many devs are mainly Achievers and Explorers.

I'm an ESAK myself from that test ;)

'WOW' by havocman
Submitted on 2007-02-26 19:29:20 CST
I have played it and its great, LOL you wanted to log after playing it because it was that bad? hands down YOUR AN IDIOT

'rude spelling' by Sente
Submitted on 2007-02-27 03:41:32 CST
No reason to be rude, Havocman. And you might want to use "You are an idiot" instead in that case.

'hey look...' by Brent
Submitted on 2007-02-27 09:23:18 CST
...our first "LOL UR N00B" poster. Help me decide... do we just delete him now and get it over with or do we let him entertain us for awhile?

'Yeah' by darrenl
Submitted on 2007-02-27 09:37:51 CST
I say we leave him for further study...give him all the rope he wants.

Come on Havocman...dazzle us with your leetsauce.

'leetsauce' by Brent
Submitted on 2007-02-27 11:10:54 CST
That's a good one. I might have to use that term. Did you trademark it?

$20 says we never see that guy again. Passion fueled flame posting, one time only.

'go for it' by darrenl
Submitted on 2007-02-27 11:16:21 CST
No trademark...its allll yours buddy.

You don't think he's coming back??? Damnit, it would have been great to see if he could be fed by hand and taught to speak English.

'Who Needs LOTR?' by zentr
Submitted on 2007-02-27 12:31:27 CST

In Vanguard, when I did the diplomacy horse quest from Veskal's Exchange, I felt like I was in the Fellowship of the Ring. The long trek through Leth Nurae (Rivendale?) and to the dwarvan lands was epic.

Besides, in Vanguard you can actually have Fellowships.

I know, I'm sounding like a VG fanboy. I guess I am. Something happened. My experience has been much like Brent's and the Mogarmy guys. Skeptical during beta, and then by release...there was something that clicked with me...doesn't seem to be just one thing.


'haha' by havocman
Submitted on 2007-02-27 16:23:57 CST
Brent your an idiot, you say you are experienced player at mmo's , then how come you try to bash lotro so much? its a good game I think your opinion is stupid and no one cares to hear it, to many people like this game to care for your opinion anyways I just wanted to let you know that I think your an noob

'oh no!' by Brent
Submitted on 2007-02-27 16:33:35 CST
Well, what do you guys think? Should I pack up VirginWorlds and flush it? I mean, if I'm a n00b... I shouldn't be doing a podcast and all this about MMOs because I might mislead people... what a quandary.

(ok, second call, do i delete or provoke?)

'Delete and ban' by Bman
Submitted on 2007-02-27 16:37:06 CST
R-tards belong in WoW, not here.

'uh-ohhh' by darrenl
Submitted on 2007-02-27 16:45:20 CST
Brent...he's on to you.

havoc, I'm glad you stuck around for further if you'd just bend over for this anal probe test. No no....keep your mouth closed...

'Smut!' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2007-02-27 17:22:06 CST
Since his posts lack any redeeming social value (i.e. they do not actually argue a point in any way) yet are not crude enough to actually be humorous, I say they are trash.

That is my own personal test for comments.

I was surprised he came by for another run though.

'amazing' by Sente
Submitted on 2007-02-27 17:30:58 CST
I am amazed the way you are presenting your case Havoc, how can anyone doubt you?

Seriously, if you want to debate merits and drawbacks of LoTRO and convince people of your view, you have to do a little, no a lot, better than to resort to insults.

If you want to make people interested in playing LoTRO, tell them why you like it then. Make a good case an you will convince people. Make a bad appearance like you started with here and you might rather drive people away, if they care at all what you are saying.

'Delete Him !' by Dathmar
Submitted on 2007-02-27 17:34:41 CST
...and I bet you wish you had the Word Processor of the in one of Stephen King's Short stories.
Type his name , highlight it and press delete....and he is gone from this world for good !.
You cannot take anyone seriously that makes the same spelling mistake twice ...and its so ironic as well.
Who is the idiot Havocman ?

'DELETE ME' by havocman
Submitted on 2007-02-27 18:05:54 CST
delete me then , its my opinion I can say what I like

'they're, their, there' by Sanctified
Submitted on 2007-02-27 18:06:08 CST
Havocman is the reason why American high school seniors ranked 17th out of 22 industrialized nations in reading and math, barely beating Mexico.

...and dont delete him, free speech is hilarious.

'....' by havocman
Submitted on 2007-02-27 18:09:18 CST
to tell you the truth I just wanted to talk to someone as cool as brent. I will leave now I guess.

'Aha!' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2007-02-27 18:12:59 CST
I knew it! You're the guy behind that creepy VirginWorlds stalker blog!

"Oh man, Brent, I just called you and idiot and a noob so you'd notice me."

(Go on, I dare somebody to post something on topic at this point!)

'lol' by havocman
Submitted on 2007-02-27 18:14:09 CST
I just want to be noticed for the best mmo player ever, I DID IT!!!

'told ya' by darrenl
Submitted on 2007-02-27 18:22:02 CST
See...he came around. Never doubt the power of the anal probe.

'A bit superior' by scytale2
Submitted on 2007-02-28 08:30:53 CST
A little disappointed with our group here. Havoc has every right to be here and comment, without others undermining him.
If he's a youngster (I assume male due to the inclusion of "man" in his name), then he's come to the right place to learn about MMOs and should be made welcome.
He may be more forward with his comments than some, which seem to me to be made tongue in cheek and would advise him to word his comments a bit more friendly next time. If they were made in an obnoxious way, then a brief warning by Brent and deletion of the content would seem to be the best thing.
Remember also that Havoc raised a view on LOTRO and Brent's view of it (which many share). I find the comments following his to be rather more offensive than his original one tbh and in one or two cases, rather more childish.
If anyone else comes along in similar vein, then at the very least Brent needs to figure out how best to deal with it - it's not our job.

'maybe not' by Brent
Submitted on 2007-02-28 09:41:25 CST
I'm going respectfully "half" disagree with you, Scytale2. When I read this comment of yours I thought, you know, maybe he's right. Maybe we were too hard on this fledgling forum troll, and then I scrolled up and saw his original post:

"hands down YOUR AN IDIOT"

And decided that a comment like that is an unprovoked personal attack which probably deserved the tongue in cheek retaliation it got. It also doesn't demonstrate a willingness to listen or a desire to be heard as a mature voice on the subject. Wouldn't you agree?

'/agree' by darrenl
Submitted on 2007-02-28 09:57:21 CST
I for one, would have not brought out the 'ol anal probe if his comments weren't wrapped up with a personal attack. No excuse for that. You argue the point someone makes, not the person who makes it.

The second Havoc did that comment, everything he said opened the discussion to tongue and cheek/anal probie kind of comments.

'Final comment from me' by scytale2
Submitted on 2007-02-28 10:57:19 CST
I will simply say that I (and most people) don't want to read personal abuse on this site, from whatever source it comes. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's it:)

'Serious then Banter' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2007-02-28 11:20:27 CST
My own first comment was completely serious. Comments without any discussion value that are personal attacks ought to just be deleted. Brent is under no obligation of any sort to provide a forum for such posts.

"I disagree with you, you're an idiot," the essence of his message, was hardly valuable in my opinion because it lacked either humor or any point that could be tackled and refuted by somebody who disagreed. The mere fact that Brent's own views on the subject of LOTRO are somewhat controversial does not excuse the message.

Brent asked use for our opinion on the subject, so we were invited to help with his job.

In the end... or near the end, things were wrapping up with happy banter that included havoc. It seemed like a happy ending to me and we were all about to have a group hug when....

Well, no we'va all been taken to task and we're in for another long series of off-topic messages... unless... Scytale2, you can bring us home on this... wrap it all up so everybody can walk away from this happy.

C'mon, we know you can do it! Mistakes were made, but give us a message of hope!

'damn...' by Wilhelm2451
Submitted on 2007-02-28 11:21:03 CST
I was too late, he'd already done it!

'ok' by Brent
Submitted on 2007-02-28 11:33:52 CST
Alright, everyone has had their say and I agree with pretty much everyone (except the part about me being an idiot), but I think we ought to wrap this up and get back to arguing about which generation of MMOs invented the sandbox....


I do not have the functionality to lock a thread (never bothered) so I'll just have to rely on your guys to lock it. :)

And scytale2, you're right we could have let it slide.

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